Looking to jump into a DSLR

[andy84]

I've been using my G10 for the past two years learning a few tips and tricks along the way and I've been happy with the overall photo quality. But I have been saving up to invest into a DSLR. My primary use will be for diving. I know that a lot of research goes into what are the best set ups and why, but I am very green on DSLRs in general. I'm hoping to get some advice on what my best options will be for the price range. I've budgeted around 3k for the camera and lens and 3k for the housing and strobes. I am signing up to take photography courses this summer and I would prefer to shoot with my own camera during the class to feel more comfortable underwater. I'm sure there are many more details I could provide but I'm not sure what would be beneficial. I have already decided that I want to spend the buck up front rather than spend twice as much learning on a beginner set up and buying expensive a year or two down the road.

I have been looking mostly at Canons and right now I am looking at the EOS7D and the EOS5D MarkII. Am I on the right track with a 7D or does the lack of "full frame" translate to poor underwater shooting? The camera shops around here have not been very helpful and seem to carry a common theme that both cameras are "great". Which is better for diving? "shrug"


Disclaimer: I have read through the stickies and spent a few hours reading through posts so please no need to rage and lecture that there is a lot of information out there. I am just looking for case specific help please since this will be a huge investment for me. I will build on my understanding in class this summer.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[andy84]

For shooting purposes. I shoot both wide angle and macro shots quite frequently. Dive locations are very diversified. Dives per year are in excess of 50 for good years.

 

[shoturtle]

Well full frame will give you superior low light ability and give you the highest image quality. But if you are shoot a strobe, that is not as important. The 5DMKII is an excellent FF dslr. But the body alone will almost eat up your whole budget. Also with full frame you will need higher quality glass to take full advantage of the FF sensor. So with your macro needs, you are looking at 900 dollars for the ef 100mm 2.8 L IS macro. And it would blow pass your camera budget. But if you get is soon, you still can get the ef 100mm 2.8 USM non IS non L for about 500 dollars. But they discontinue it but there is still a decent supply in the retail chain.

The 7D will give you a bit more option with lenses, as you can use ef-s series lenses for aps-c bodies. And you will be able to get a macro lens, a good regular lens also with in your budget.

I do not dive my dslr's but with what you want to do and your budget, I would go with an aps-c body. And go with some good lenses. As the lenses really effect the shots more so then the body.

The ef 100mm 2.8L IS is most likely the best macro on the market currently. I have the non L 100mm 2.8 which is also good if you can find one.

 

[HerraduraDivers]

andy84,
there is a similar tread of a guy like you on wetpixel and it may be helpful:
HELP: Do I need a DSLR? - Wetpixel :: Underwater Photography Forums

Chris

 

[peterbj7]

I don't dive with a DSLR, but if I were to I'd choose a FF camera for the better image quality and greater depth of field. I think you're going about it the wrong way mind, as you should really choose your camera based on its overall abilities, but if a FF Canon would suit you (and it would certainly be an excellent choice) why not look around for an original 5D "classic"? Performance is superb, and you can get the body for around $1000. Take a look at POTN.

A friend shoots underwater professionally and he uses the Nikon D700. Outstanding low light performance, so that he often doesn't even take strobes down with him. He gets publishable results at ISO 6000 (after post processing). But that body new costs about the same as the Canon 5D2, though you can find them used. And Nikon lenses are extraordinarily expensive.

 

[shoturtle]

I would buy uses lenses, but I tend to avoid used bodies. I use my camera heavily. And my newest one which is only a year old, has over 30k actuation on the shutter and sensor. If something goes wrong with a used camera body it can get expensive.

 

[HerraduraDivers]

A full frame camera does NOT have automaticly a bigger/smaller field of depth,
under certain circumstances she MAY have a bigger or a smaller field of depth.
Depth of Field and the Small-Sensor Digital Cameras - photo.net

If i had the $$$ to buy a full frame camera when i bought my aps-c sensor camera,
i would have choosen the full frame. Simply because i like to have the best! Point!
If it makes sense for a non professional to go diving with a 4000$ + camera is arguable and if the pictures are so much better is arguable as well. From the technical point of view they are, from the optical and especially mental aspect a aps-c photographies are more than good enough for 90% of their -also professional- use.
Some specialized, scientific pictures may be a exception, but finally what counts is the motive or composition and not the technical data.

Chris

 

[Banon]

Andy84,

I've been where you are, so I'll add a few rambling thoughts for your consideration.

My wife and I have averaged close to 50 dives/year for the last 7 years, all warm(ish) water vacation diving. I started UW photography right at 7 years ago with a S&S 3000DX + S&S YS-25DX strobe. My wife was getting bored when I'd stop to shoot pics of little stuff, so she started UW photography as well. At this point she has a Canon G11 + Inon Z240 and I'm shooting a Canon G9 + S&S YS-110a... and we're both hooked on UW photography.

Depending on how you buy, you can get P&S cameras for WAY less than DSLRs. The G9 was about $500 including an extra battery, and the G11 was about the same. Canon housings are cheap, generally about $175. You can either build your own or buy attachments for wet mount lenses, fairly inexpensively.

Good strobes are going to run you the same cost whether you go P&S or DSLR. I share the opinion you can find posted all over ScubaBoard; don't skimp on the strobes. Having both the S&S YS-110a and Inon Z240, I can tell you that I like them both. If cost was no object I'd probably stick with the Z240. It has slightly more power and a tad bit more control. The YS-110a weighs a little more above water, but it is slightly positive below. We added a bouyancy arm for my wife to avoid arm fatigue with the Z240.

I bought the YS-110a offshore and saved $200 under the cost of the Z240. The slightly less power and control is so minor for me that I'd probably make that choice again... except... I generally end up cleaning o-rings for all the gear so I'd prefer to be able to use the same o-ring grease for all. S&S uses blue o-rings; Inon uses yellow; my understanding is that you don't want to mix grease on the two or you mess up the o-rings.

While I'm already horribly off topic, I'll mention that I'm also the "offical camera carrier" while we travel... which means I get to carry 2 x P&S setups plus a laptop. After going through the hard Pelican case phase (which is a pain to carry through airports) I got a Tamarac Cyberpack 8 which holds all the camera/strobe/housing gear for both of our setups plus a laptop. It's a nice little carry-on bundle but it still weighs 35 pounds.

So back on topic. I've looked over the photographs my wife and I have taken over the years and I've noticed both improvement and deterioration of our shot quality, depending on how long it had been since our last trip, whether we had new gear, whether we were trying new techniques, etc. Doing only 50 dives/year, it's not like we'll ever be professionals. That said, I've compared our pics to pics taken by other folks on our trips using DSLRs, and our good pics compete pretty darn well.

If I'm honest, the little Canons (G9 and G11 for us) are better cameras than we are photographers. We're still learning different techniques, but if we do them right the camera will capture the shot. It's also nice to be able to shoot macro and wide angle during the same dive with wet mount lenses, which is not something you can easily do with DSLRs (although I've seen some folks with wet mount lenses on DSLR rigs).

Where I'm going with all this is that I've lusted after DSLR setups, compared them, priced them out, etc. etc... but I've finally come to the realization that it just doesn't make sense for me for the following reasons:

• P&S cameras are continually closing the gap with DSLRs on quality. No, I dont' think they will ever close it entirely, but they get close enough that my skill is really the limiting factor, not the camera.
• I don't want to carry more weight. Those DSLR rigs are HEAVY!
• I like the ability to insert my camera into small spots to get a shot without damaging the environment. I've watched several guys with DSLRs "settle in", often breaking coral to get the shot. That ticks me off and I don't want any part of it.
• Price. Camera gear is continually improving. Strobes last a long time, but camera gear is dated within a couple of years. (If Canon/Nikon/whoever would standardize the DSLR body so that upgrades didn't require a new UW housing, this would a MUCH lesser issue... but until then it remains a significant factor. $2500+ for a new UW housing when you want to upgrade the camera body is a big deal.)

Here are a few links to pics with thoughts/techniques we've been practicing. You may already know and practice this stuff, but it's fun for us.

A fairy basslet. These things are HARD to shoot. My wife nailed this one. The tricky part is getting the camera to focus on the small mobile fish rather than the background. I think the G11 is a little better than the G9 for fast focus.
http://bktravel.shutterfly.com/594

Here's a fireworm, using the technique of small aperature and very fast shutter to blacken the background.
http://bktravel.shutterfly.com/583

Here's a conch eye, using a wet mount macro lens.
http://bktravel.shutterfly.com/591

Balloonfish face because, well, who doesn't think balloonfish are cute?
http://bktravel.shutterfly.com/571

Yellow jawfish. This isn't a good shot, but I wanted to talk about the lighting technique. I always washed these out, but a kind fellow photographer on a recent trip told me that the "trick" for these is to move the strobe to sand level and light horizonatally/up. It works MUCH better!
http://bktravel.shutterfly.com/651

And here's a link to a post I made a while back on G9 first impressions. I still like the camera, but I'm getting the gear lust bug again... I'm watching for the Canon G11 and S90 successors...
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/canon-corner/235416-canon-g9-lembeh.html

 

[Larry C]

Can't comment on Canons. Never had one. Can't comment on full frame vs. APS-C. I only have an APS-C. I can comment on going from point and shoot to DSLR. Wow, what a difference. I shot my D300 topside for almost two years before getting a housing. I've been shooting a little Olympus SP350 since I started UW photography about 5 years ago. I do at least 100 dives a year, cold water and warm and we try to travel to a warm water place about once a year.
The reasons that I chose to house the D300 were: The SP is SLOWWWW! Slow focusing, slow shooting and slow writing. The D300 is like a machine gun. Topside, I can blow through a 16 gig card in a day, then spend a week sorting out the garbage.
Picture quality is reason #2. The SP was pretty good in its day, but never a great lens. I've always been able to shoot decent pics with it, but never great ones.
Wide angle-the SP is 35mm equivalent, and with an add on wet lens it will shoot reasonably wide.
Close focus ability: The SP has a miserable time focusing at anything close to 1:1 range, and adding a close up lens didn't help much. It also doesn't shoot well underwater while zoomed.
Big differences in DSLR shooting:
As previously noted, the thing is huge and it weighs a ton. With a dome, it is slightly positive and I have to compensate for a light nose. With a standard port it's quite negative. The camera requires both hands most of the time, whereas my P&S could be carried comfortably in my right hand while I used my left for everything else. It doesn't fit in as tight a space, which is probably fine for wide angle panoramas in the tropics, but makes working in crevices and under ledges a PITA.
Every lens requires a different set up and behaves differently. The lighting requirements change for every port.
You have to carry a ton of eqpt. and decide which you're going to use on each dive. I have yet to find a box that is small enough to fit on our boat comfortably, but accommodates both the standard and dome port as well as the housing and arms without taking up walking room. I might have to make one or settle for a big heavy one for local and a couple of smaller llighter ones for travel.
When you travel, just the camera and lenses will eat all of your carry on and you'll have to fight to carry them on puddle jumpers. I haven't traveled with the housing yet and I'm not sure if I'll be able to part with it and check it as luggage, or I'll have to make some really tough choices.
I have yet to figure out how to light a wide shot with the dome in our local green waters. It's a whole lot different than a point and shoot, even with an add on WA lens on the P&S and it's been frustrating so far.
Controls that were literally at your fingertips on the P&S are sometimes a foot away. Particularly frustrating has been trying to adust the focus point on spot focus while framing the shot. I need an 8 inch thumb.
In retrospect, I've questioned whether I would have been better off just upgrading to a camera like the one you have now, with which many people are getting spectacular results. In the hands of a pro, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference, and I know at least one who has put all his SLR's in the closet for UW shooting and is strictly carrying a G10 when he travels. I watched a slide show of his work next to several excellent shooters with 5DMKII's and honestly, I'd be hard pressed to tell much difference on the same subjects, with the exception of some WA shots that he couldn't replicate because of the G10's limited WA capability.
I hope this helps and doesn't complicate your decision too much. Whatever you decide, I'm sure you'll be happy with once you get comfortable with it and deal with the details.

 

[andy84]

Thank you all for the excellent advice here. Much more to think about that I had originally anticipated. I think I'll have to keep the DSLR out of the water for now and make sure I acquire some nice lenses. I never took into consideration how quickly the amount of gear would stack up and become an issue in the airports. Maybe diving with the big rigs isn't for me just yet. I could save the money and try to add a few more trips this winter. I don't think I could handle losing all of that gear if I sprang a leak mid dive. The G10 is small and I can easily maneuver around without causing damage. I overlooked the advantage of maneuverability. I think a nice set of strobes for the G10 will keep me happy for a while longer. Thanks again!