Issuing cert cards before training is complete-Split from Sotis vs IANTD

[divezonescuba]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

New thread split from Sotis vs. IANTD thread

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I thought it was interesting how there was no mechanism for revoking the certifications.

There was a case with another certification agency where they actually asked the students to mail back the cards that had been issued to them and sent out new ones. The agency presumedly did not want to incur the liability of having the students using the wrong cards. The agency also downgraded the certification levels in the database.

 

[Wookie]

I understood the accident happened on/after a non-training dive, and after successful completion of the course. Tom's deposition shows a whole different story.
No exam made, no final course dive done, but certification already sent in. And a request to revoke certification after the accident. Wow!

I'm fairly certain that every certification agency allows pre-issuing cards before certification is complete. Especially IANTD. They are such a ******* agency, my cards took over 6 months to arrive. When I actually taught PADI and SDI, I would pre-order cards so I could hand them to the students when they were complete. If they didn't finish the class, you turned the card back in to the agency.

 

[JohnnyC]

I'm fairly certain that every certification agency allows pre-issuing cards before certification is complete. Especially IANTD. They are such a ******* agency, my cards took over 6 months to arrive. When I actually taught PADI and SDI, I would pre-order cards so I could hand them to the students when they were complete. If they didn't finish the class, you turned the card back in to the agency.

Just get yourself a card printer. I hear there's one floating around cave country somewhere.....

Snarkiness aside, it was beneficial when I did full cave that I went to the IANTD license holder (now former) for Mexico/Caribbean. They had my card printed before the last dive and while I was "cleaning up" (pfft, like I hadn't already checked everything) with my head down my instructor had my card waiting for me with a handshake. I couldn't imagine trying to get anything from IANTD if you weren't someplace with a card printer.

 

[Kay Dee]

Gents, a little late to this discussion, but…………………………

Having just read the Sotis vs IANTD brief, all the posts in this thread, and a couple of the depositions (Mr’s Fowler and Mount) I am still not sure if I am sure of the actual training / paperwork timeline, which seems rather pivotal re what is being discussed here.

Maybe someone with more knowledge of all this can clarify for me please?

My take is it goes like this (and please correct me if I am wrong), i.e.;

The normoxic CCR course was completely finished (sometime late 2016) and certs issued; and then at least one dive of the full trimix CCR course was conducted (on 27th Jan. 2017) with the accident taking place a few days later on a non course dive (but prior to course completion).

So it was from this uncompleted trimix course that a certification request was submitted prematurely, and the certs issued (and it is these certs that were asked to be pulled by Mr Sotis)?

Is this correct?

Or……………………………….. am I missing something?

Until I know I am on the right track I would like to await before commenting further.

TIA.

 

[The Chairman]

It doesn't appear Stewart had the prerequisite number of dives to start the hypoxic course. I can see why Sotis et al would not want to hand out a cert when the standards had clearly not been met.

 

[Kay Dee]

Now back to the issue I wanted to initially address re the request by Mr Sotis to cancel / pull the qualifications.

If we are to give everyone involved the benefit of the doubt here, that is I believe I read somewhere that an employee of Mr Sotis inadvertently submitted the paperwork for the trimix CCR qualification thinking all was complete (when it wasn't), then Mr Sotis would have every right (actually an obligation I would think) to request the cancellations of said certs; and given the circumstances as expressed above at face value, then in my opinion IANTD should have agreed to that (well actually have been required to do that, given that the course was not completed as per Standards). I can see from Mr Mounts deposition though that apparently no ‘mechanism’ exists within IANTD for doing this (i.e pulling / cancelling certs), but unless things have changed dramatically since my time at the wheel with regards the speed with which IANTD issues certs, then these particular certs could have been pulled before they ever got near the student, (that is if everyone concerned agreed that an honest mistake - of submitting incorrect paper work - had been made in the process). Now I realise that once a student gets a cert in his/her hand it is virtually impossible to pull, but in this instance it seems they were still in the 'pipeline', and if they were incorrectly issued because of a 'clerical error' then they should never get / be allowed to get to the student anyway.

However, that aside, as The Chairmen has quite succinctly alluded to, if there were not enough hours / dives accumulated on CCR after the end of the normoxic course and before starting the hypoxic course, then it is a completely different kettle of fish, with unfortunately Mr Sotis then being in flagrant violation of several Standards and, given the circumstances of the death, IANTD would be completely within their rights to leave things as they were with certs issued. As a matter of fact I would have thought they would have been ‘obliged' to leave things as they were, given the prospect of legal proceedings (which as it turns out have transpired), as unfortunately if the course was started without the prerequisite hours, the course not completed but the paperwork put in, then an issue of ‘fraud’ could / would be on the table.

 

[RainPilot]

My take on certification issues:

It is REALLY important not to submit any paperwork certifying that something has been completed when it hasn't. Every agency I have learned or taught with has been very clear on that. There is a signature required, where the certifying instructor certifies that the course is fully completed. The practice of submitting in advance in order to expedite card delivery may seem like a good idea but is, as may come up later, fraught with legal and liability and moral issues.

No agency should IMO allow the possibility of cert retractions. Once someone has the card, there is no realistic way that the information that the cert is not valid can be disseminated to every dive op everywhere. Of course, if a mistake has been made and the card is not yet issued, then that card should not be sent out but the liability for that needs to rest on the final certifying instructor or shop.

If it is not a mistake (wrong student name on a course with several students etc) but a standard practice to cut corners, that should be accompanied with some form of harsher corrective action with the instructor. The system is there, for better or worse. If there are issues and flaws, by all means work within that system to correct it but one cannot just do your own thing and then complain afterwards when it goes wrong.

It would be VERY difficult after the fact to differentiate between a simple mistake and an attempted coverup of "false" certs, don't put yourself in that situation.

In flying, we always used to ask before making an unusual call, "what would this look like in the Board of Inquiry? What would this sound like to a jury?". That usually puts a perspective on it.

 

[The Chairman]

I think that the idea of never retracting certs is a bit short sighted. I was told in my very first ITC (agency name withheld on purpose) to print out cards before the final OW dive so you can present them then and there. If they didn't pass, then you sent the card back, asking them to reverse everything. You won't get back the cert fees, but so what? The real issue for me is the apparent disregard for the standard requiring a minimum amount of experience. No matter how gifted your student may be, they need time underwater to perfect those skills before they add new skills to the mix.

 

[Johnoly]

.... If they didn't pass, then you sent the card back, asking them to reverse everything.....

But that's a huge legal liability for the instructor and it's all because of a TIMING issue. So most students immediately jump in right after their course. But they failed and still want to dive.
No problem,,,,Padi has their certification ON LINE,,just say you lost the card and tell the boat to look it up online-----which shows they passed.
Kid dies,,,,,who's padi and the boat going to point the finger at?

 

[Wookie]

But that's a huge legal liability for the instructor and it's all because of a TIMING

Could be, but I have been a **** as well as an *** instructor, and both of those agencies allow the practice. In my IDC, it was encouraged, so the student could be granted the card as they walked out of the water.

I was handed my OWSI card upon passing the IDC.