Is selling Life Support Equipment on the Net Ethical ?

[Firewalker]

I have been in the dive business since 1975 (that’s when I took my ITC). Since then I have certified thousands of divers and sold millions of dollars of equipment. Most of my adult life has had to do with diving and diving safety.
My dive store has been in business now since 1978 (and we have made money every year).
The mail order business has been around since I first started diving in the late 60’s. Skin Diver Magazine had mail order ads in the back pages. The Internet is the same thing just a different bigger format(it was wrong in the late 60's and is wrong today).
I shop and some times buy on the net (books, camera’s, airline tickets, etc.) but never would I buy Life Support Equipment(there is a big difference).
Selling life support equipment on the net to “be quit frank” is unethical, it’s unethical from the stand point of dive instruction, unethical from a business stand point(I don’t know if there are really ethics in business, but there should be), and it’s unethical from the stand point of product safety.
When selling life support equipment to someone, the seller needs to sit up and evaluate the performance of the product (before they give it to the buyer). Then the seller needs to give the customer an orientation to how the product works. This is something that has to be done when selling life support equipment, and can’t be done on the net(the internet salesman are taking the money and running, with no thought to the safety of the divers or the safety of the product).
The mail order (internet) sales, takes away sales that the LDS could have made. Very often the LDS has introduced the product to the customer and has done most of the work in selling the product. And then the mail order house cherry picks the sale. This of course is just part of business. But it weakens the LDS (and the industry as a whole). It has caused a lost of expertise that has hurt the community in the last 10 years.
The very core of dive instruction is that we teach students how to use life support equipment. The student is certified in that use. When selling mail order or on the net there is no way to check for certification. Uncertified divers are being sold life support equipment on the net. This practice, under mines the whole concept of diving instruction as we know it.
Selling life support equipment on the net is unethical. It should not be supported by the dive community. It is harmful and maybe our undoing.

Firewalker

 

[Don Burke]

By that reasoning, food should not be sold online either.

 

[theskull]

Did you just get here? Read some of the board before posting?

Your points are very valid . . . and have been made, attacked, and defended so often and so viciously that you may get little response on yet another attempt.

theskull

 

[scubasean]

I have been in the dive business since 1975 (that’s when I took my ITC).

<snip>

My dive store has been in business now since 1978 (and we have made money every year).

<snip>

Selling life support equipment on the net is unethical. It should not be supported by the dive community. It is harmful and maybe our undoing.

Firewalker

I think I know why you think it is unethical...heh...As you said, mail order and internet sales are similar...and you did say that mail order takes away from your bottom line...(big hint here...)

So, by analogy (yours, not mine) you must also believe mail order sales off net are unethical....

I'm glad we are in a world where we both can hold different opinions...because we do [hold different opinions, that is...].

:banana:

 

[TwoBitTxn]

I have been in the dive business since 1975 (that’s when I took my ITC). Since then I have certified thousands of divers and sold millions of dollars of equipment. Most of my adult life has had to do with diving and diving safety.
My dive store has been in business now since 1978 (and we have made money every year).

I'm impressed by this. Most new small businesses don't make money the first couple years. Some never do.

The mail order business has been around since I first started diving in the late 60’s. Skin Diver Magazine had mail order ads in the back pages. The Internet is the same thing just a different bigger format(it was wrong in the late 60's and is wrong today).
I shop and some times buy on the net (books, camera’s, airline tickets, etc.) but never would I buy Life Support Equipment(there is a big difference).

Explain the difference. Purchasing something essentially sight unseen is the rule on the net. Caveat Emptor. (let the buyer beware)

Selling life support equipment on the net to “be quit frank” is unethical, it’s unethical from the stand point of dive instruction, unethical from a business stand point(I don’t know if there are really ethics in business, but there should be), and it’s unethical from the stand point of product safety.

This is your opinion. Yes, there is ethics in business. To say all businesses are unethical would be an unfair blanket statement. Unethical from a product safety standpoint- How? How does product safety improve when a customer buys a product in a face-toface transaction versus online?

When selling life support equipment to someone, the seller needs to sit up and evaluate the performance of the product (before they give it to the buyer). Then the seller needs to give the customer an orientation to how the product works. This is something that has to be done when selling life support equipment...

Opinion again. The sellers job is to sell the product. The buyers job is to know what is being purchased. It has always been this way. If the customer wants an orientation to the product the customer can ask for it. The seller can give it unrequested. This is called customer service. If the customer does not wish to receive this orientation. That is the customers choice. Not the sellers.

The mail order (internet) sales, takes away sales that the LDS could have made. Very often the LDS has introduced the product to the customer and has done most of the work in selling the product. And then the mail order house cherry picks the sale. This of course is just part of business. But it weakens the LDS (and the industry as a whole). It has caused a loss of expertise that has hurt the community in the last 10 years.

Opinion again. Support with facts. This is called competition. Free market economy. Darwinism. The business place is the absolute best example of Darwinism at work. The old LDS model, IMHO, no longer works.

The very core of dive instruction is that we teach students how to use life support equipment. The student is certified in that use. When selling mail order or on the net there is no way to check for certification. Uncertified divers are being sold life support equipment on the net.

The only solution to this is government regulation. Is that what you are asking for?

Selling life support equipment on the net is unethical. It should not be supported by the dive community. It is harmful and maybe our undoing.

Opinion again. The support in the dive community is growing, not shrinking. The LDS that can go get customers, have an internet presence, teach, and provide SUPERB cutomer service will survive. Those that fight progress because they don't agree with it, won't. My opinion.

TwoBit

 

[bwerb]

Yawn...I think I already answered this thread once already today...

(Luke...use the search button...)

Unethical? No more so than LDS's perpetuating the get em in, train em quick, sell em quick, make them indentured servants...ahem...DM's and make them pay for the privledge of taking a course while working for free...oops...got my rant crossed again...

 

[Rick Inman]

When selling life support equipment to someone, the seller needs to sit up and evaluate the performance of the product (before they give it to the buyer).

Huh?? That just sounds backwards to me. I think the BUYER should evaluate the product, whether online or at their LDS. Otherwise, the buyer is making a "trust me" buy.
I did some research and decided I wanted to buy an Atomic M1 regulator. No one in my town carries it. My LDS said, "We only carry Scubapro because if you have Scubapro, there's no point in having anything else."
Right.
So I did some price/service research and ordered mine from ScubaToys (it arrives tomorrow!). Was it unethical for them to sell it to me? I called them, they didn't call me. I guess you think they should have told me to buy the Scubapro locally.

 

[Firefyter]

Just another troll through the park......

 

[CHUD]

Troll. New member, has started two threads with verbose posts already, both on controversial issues and stating an opinion under the guise of soliciting opinions.

Buh. Bye.

 

[RonFrank]

I support the local LDS's on some things. On others I do not.

What you are suggesting is that ANY piece of dive equipment that is NOT sold through a Local Dive shop is somehow unsafe. That is simply not true. Your argument would also exclude the sale of used gear, as there is no *authorized* dealer behind the sale.

The fact is, it's rather easy and cost justified to have gear checked out and serviced if necessary.

As for purchasing from the LDS for everything, sure, I'd love to do that. Unfortunately it's impossible for me to justify spending $550 on a regulator that I can purchase from an authorized dealer online for $300, and from LP for $250.

Based on my retail experience, *authorized* dealers sign an agreement with the manufacture or distributor. This agreement often sets minimum prices, what products must be carried, and even how the goods may be sold. For example SUUNTO does not authorize ANY dealer to sell online. As MANY of their products are NOT even scuba related, what is the issue?

The answer, price fixing, and retail distribution and control. This practice goes against the free market principel. Unfortunately manufactures control how business owners can market and sell products in WAY too many catagories IMO.

The end result, everyone looses. The unaware consumer sometimes gets a product that *should* be backed by the manufacture but is not. The retailer is often forced to carry lines of equipment that they have a hard time selling to enable them to carry the hot selling models, massive grey market selling becomes the norm, and rip off artists can work uneducated consumers.

Ron