Irresponsible?

[xyrandomyx]

I went on a live-aboard trip earlier this year. I'd completed my PADI OW certification a few weeks before and hadn't done any dives since then. On the live-aboard, I was accompanied by an instructor on several dives to depths between between 22 and 27 metres (~72 to 89 feet). At the time, I assumed this was OK. I was with an instructor. I'd been honest about my certification level and (utter lack of) experience. Judging by the reaction of an instructor back home, though, this was not case -- he seemed shocked that an instructor had taken me to those depths with only a PADI OW certification.

I felt comfortable at the time, but I realise this could simply have been due to ignorance and misplaced trust in the instructor I was with. I would have been put off by an attitude that seemed dismissive of safety concerns or one of bravado or machismo. I would also have been uncomfortable if anything seemed grossly reckless to me (for example, dive plans that exceeded generally accepted recreational limits). Beyond that, lacking the experience to evaluate the instructor firsthand, I was relying on reviews and research about the dive outfit that I'd done beforehand.

I also can't help thinking that the shocked instructor back home would almost certainly have been willing to take me to similar depths as part of an AOW certification directly after my OW certification. And, having just completed the theory for AOW, I'm fairly sure there isn't much new information introduced for the deep dive portion (it seems more of a reiteration and brief expansion on the info covered in OW).

Was I being irresponsible?

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Was I being irresponsible?

Did you have an appreciation for gas management on the dives that you did on the liveaboard trip?
Did you have an appreciation for narcosis on the dives that you did?
Did you demonstrate a reasonable level of competence in buoyancy control and other OW skills?
Would you have felt comfortable telling the liveaboard guide/DM/instructor that you weren't OK with a proposed dive plan (max depth, time at depth, etc.)?

In my mind, it's difficult to criticize the liveaboard instructor who happened to be guiding your dives, so long as he briefed the dive properly. As far as I can tell, he wasn't functioning as an instructor to you. He was working as an in-water DM, right? As such, he should have discussed a maximum depth in pre-dive briefings. If you were uncomfortable with any elements of the proposed dive, it was your responsibility to speak up at that time.

AFAIK, the PADI OW certification recommends a depth limit of 60 fsw. For non-class dives, it's up to the certified diver (not the DM/instructor) to decide what is OK on any given dive.

 

[fire_diver]

There is no max depth. As a certified diver you should be able plan you own dives, and dive your plans. There is nothing magical about diving deeper than 60ft, it takes a little more forethought and understanding. I'd bet your liveaboard DM was taking those into consideration.

BTW - if you instructor didn't teach you how to plan your dives, he failed you.

 

[Insta-Gator]

In my opinion, the answer to your question is, 'no.' (1) you are here to talk about it, (2) you seem cognitive enough to thumb (cancel) the dive if you became uncomfortable.
One more bean in the bucket of experience.

 

[g1138]

It's not irresponsible if you don't know any better. If someone were to tell you that you had to calculate your gas management, maintain great buoyancy, and plan and dive your plan to be able to dive 25m. And you couldn't do any of those things and still went on the dive. THAT would be irresponsible.

Right now your just the new guy, you'll stand on the golf course at 9pm only to get soaked by the sprinklers, all because a pro told you to and you didn't know any better.

But you came back safe in sound so take it as a learning experience. Until you can do all the things Bubbletrubble said up above, you probably shouldn't be diving down that deep.
The instructor on the other hand should have briefed you on the dangers of going that deep. Such as how one needs more buoyancy control to counter act the compression of your neoprene, or how you need to have more rigid gas management system in your head.

Looking at it this way, the instructor probably felt comfortable keeping an eye on you and felt that you wouldn't have a big issue during the dive. What he probably didn't think of was if HE had an issue, would YOU be able to take over and overcome it for the both of you. That's one thing most of use forget to think about IMO.
"I trust myself to save my buddy on this dive, but what about the other way around?" That's what we should be asking after confirming with ourselves that we can do a dive.

I'm glad you're thinking about your limits in diving. That's what makes a good diver, one who's always willing and looking to learn.

 

[The Chairman]

Was I being irresponsible?

No. Was the instructor who accompanied to such dizzying depths irresponsible? Probably not.

There are any number of instructors who must show their superiority by bashing other instructors and agencies. I have one thing to say to them:

QUITCHERBELLYACHING! ​

He could be jealous or mad that another instructor DARED to touch their student... especially if you had FUN. They really can't stand it if you have FUN. Heaven forbid that you enjoy yourself on your vacation! So, take a deep breath, smile to yourself and keep on working on having fun while you dive.

 

[theduckguru]

If you are an instructor and you can't take an OW to those depths, how do you teach a deep specialty?

 

[xyrandomyx]

Um. I had an appreciation of gas management to the extent that I didn't once surface with less than 50 bar (sorry, not sure what that is in PSI, which seems the more common unit on this board). I followed briefing instructions to let the DM/ instructor know when my air reached certain points. I knew I needed to check guages more often at greater depths. I must say, though, that the PADI OW coursework didn't go into much detail at all on that aspect of dive planning (and the instructor I did my OW course only added a little to that).

I'd like to think I demonstrated a somewhat reasonable level of competence in buoyancy control and other OW skills. I'm still very much working on improving my buoyancy control, but I didn't make any uncontrolled ascents or descents; I managed to maintain close-enough-to-neutral (perhaps slightly negative at times) buoyancy on safety stops, enough to stay in place for the required time; I didn't bump into the bottom (though I did at times keep a foot or two more space between me and the bottom than the more experienced divers in the group).

As for nitrogen narcosis: I'm aware of its existence, the possibility of it affecting someone at that depth, some of the signs and symptoms of it, but I suppose I couldn't be sure if I was mildly affected on those dives (I'd imagine I would've realised afterwards if symptoms were severe).

I think I would've been comfortable telling the DM that I wasn't comfortable with a proposed dive plan. I doubt I would've criticised it, but I would've rather sat a dive out if I didn't feel comfortable with the plan. And, yes, since I wasn't taking a course, the instructor was acting more as an in-water DM. I was, however, careful to speak to them before dives/ the trip about my level of experience to make sure that they felt I was being sane/ reasonable -- so, in that sense, I was relying partly on their judgement.



@g1138 I kind of see your point, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with you about it not being irresponsible if I don't know better. Seeing as not knowing better could result in MY death, it'd seem to me that responsibility always ultimately lies with me.

"I trust myself to save my buddy on this dive, but what about the other way around?"

That's something that went through my head a few times on those dives as well as my OW training dives (on those, though, we were accompanied by an instructor and a DM, so I presume the instructor was counting on the DM to bail him out should something happen to him).

A question, though: it seems a lot of people (probably grudgingly) dive with 'insta-buddies' on trips and the like. Aren't you always in the position of not knowing those cases? Do you feel it's an acceptable risk to dive with someone you don't really know (trusting their claims about their level of experience and so on)?

 

[g1138]

It depends how you define irresponsible. I don't call toddlers irresponsible when they put a fork in the electrical socket.

In any case, glad you were thinking of these things.

In regards to the insta buddy comment. The simple thing is the world ain't perfect. The way I view scuba is that it's the most unnatural and lucky sport ever to exist. You can day dream during an entire dive and not pay attention to your gauges etc and come out just fine. On the other hand there's a big risk for doing just that, yet plenty of divers do and they get away with it.

Diving with an insta buddy is putting you into the unknown. Most of us here on the board insist you conduct a casual interview with your buddy to set ground rules and get a feel and understanding for each other. I agree with this but in reality even I would be a little shy to grill my new found buddy with random questions about their abilities (I would feel like I'm insulting them).

We all take risks when we put that reg in our mouth. It's all up to you, as an individual, to decide whether you want to take that risk (knowing what you know, what you don't know, and what you don't know you don't know).
I equate it to driving a car or crossing the streets in the city. You never know when some idiot is gonna swerve and hit you.
Yet you put a enough trust in humanity to assume that things will stay relatively safe or within your control. And most times it stays just like that.

 

[Doubler]

I had a new OW certified diver at work tell me that his instructor taught that diving deeper than 60 feet was dangerous, therefore in this students mind, because I routinely dove deeper than 60 feet and OMG 130 feet on occasion, I was a swimming death machine and he would not accompany me on a week liveaboard vacation over fear that he would die. I did not force the issue or belittle him, I did however have a little discussion with his instructor about what the heck he was teaching. He informed me that these were PADI standards. I let him know that the way he instructed it needed a little adjustment because this kid thinks if he strays to 61 feet he is in danger and missed a chance at a great vacation.