Ice dive class?

[Aqua-Andy]

So I keep going back and forth whether I'm going to take the class or not. I have TDI cavern and ADV. wreck and have done quite a bit of penetration. What we have been doing is diving under the ice "cave diving style" and we feel comfortable with what we are doing. When we dive like this we check ice conditions and make sure the ice is not going to move and several other precautions. I'm not looking to debate whether this is right or wrong or be lectured on our methods, we have weighed the risks and we practice skills in open water regularly. I have read the cold weather diving book and got some good info out of it it was defiantly not mind blowing. At this point I'm looking at taking the class for the card. Why you ask? There are several clubs in our area that do ice diving and require a card, I've seen pictures of there outings and it looks like a blast. At these outings they have trucks and trailers out on the ice with barbecue grills and EazyUp awnings and they make a day of it and it just looks like a great way to spend a winter day. I guess I just don't have the right attitude about the class, I guess I just don't think I will get much out of the money I'm spending. The procedures seam pretty straight forward and after reading the requirements for completing the class I have done or already know the material. I have so far been against taking classes just to collect cards but this is just what I will be doing by taking this class. So my question is have anyone of you been in this situation and do you feel you got enough out of the class to justify the time and money involved?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

A good ice class will cover things I'm betting you have not considered. I took the SEI Ice Class 3 years ago and it gave me a whole new appreciation for all overhead diving and fundamentally changed the way I see and frankly plan every dive. Seeing people walking above you from 50 feet down and knowing that if there is a problem they cannot in any way help is quite sobering. The only lifeline you have to the surface is the tether and it leads to the hole cut into the ice. Funny thing is that many irregularities in the ice can be mistaken for the hole when they trap air bubbles. Following proper ice procedures is critical. As are the physiology factors that are covered. There is quite a bit of theory in a good ice class and proper planning is the result of that. People having a blast in the way you described is a result of all that goes into a class and there are many practical logistical reasons for them doing what they do.

My avatar is from the last set of ice dives I did.

 

[chrisch]

We used to live near a lake that froze in winter and gave us the chance to dive under the ice. I have never had formal ice diver training but have formal cave training. I think most ice diver training is of the recreational tethered diver variety and as there is a good thread on whether or not to tether let's leave that discussion there.

However, there are lots of issues regarding diving under ice that perhaps are not covered by other overhead training. Cold and redundant gas supply are perhaps the main ones.

There are a couple of good publications by Walt Hendricks. I would check these out before you invest in any training. He's pretty sceptical about the recreational tethered courses beloved of PADI and the other mainstream agencies. The guy comes from a public safety diver background and whilst some of the reading is about this bit of diving there is enough material to make you think about what you need on "just for fun" dives as well.

I was offered the chance to cert up as an Ice Diver Instructor some years back, just by going on a 3 dive course. I had done more ice dives in the lake with the (also uncertified) wife than the instructor trainer. The instructor trainer had no other overhead experience. Minimum equipment to take part in the course (tethered) did not include a mandatory full redundant gas source like a pony or independent twins. (The wife and I dive manifolded twins in the lake or a single and carry a deco tank as a "pony").

I would say therefore if looking at formal training I would want an instructor that really understands diving under ice. I don't think many do, based on the people I know. I'm sure there is an over-reliance on the tether and an optimistic view that you can get the diver out easily if there is a problem. Pulling out an out-of-gas diver isn't that easy and if the tether is wrapped round a submerged tree it's only use is to save you the search and rescue element of the body recovery.

If someone lets you dive beneath ice without a fully redundant gas source they don't really understand the first thing about ice diving IMHO.

 

[Diver0001]

What we have been doing is diving under the ice "cave diving style" and we feel comfortable with what we are doing.

That's how the IANTD course I took teaches it. I got a lot out of the ice course I took but if all you're looking for a card then frankly that's probably all you'll get out of the class. I would say learning requires an open mind. Maybe you *do* know it all... but I'd double down on the bet that you don't.

R..

 

[shoredivr]

Yeah, we had a death up here a couple of years ago involving a buddy pair with above average tech training, doubles, extra backgas in slung 80's, diving the St. Lawrence River out to a wreck about 500 m offshore, following a line a la cave diving protocol. The deceased diver's inflator hose freeflowed and froze, and he made an uncontrolled ascent into the underside of the ice in 65 ft of water IIRC.

The obvious take home for me was that inflator hoses can freeflow and freeze if they are connected in 33F water, and some days sh!t happens, despite all our training and equipment maintainance.

I would never have come to that conclusion without the detailed posting by the surviving buddy. And I have no idea if a PADI ice diving course would have you orally inflate your wing instead of leaving the inflator hose hooked up in extremely cold water. However, this incident pointed out to me that in the winter diving I do (temp below 38F), which here can be done without ice cover in some locations on the Great Lakes, I need not to connect the wing inflator, and orally inflate instead. Makes for cold teeth.

 

[chrisch]

...
The obvious take home for me was that inflator hoses can freeflow ....

Thanks for that - something to think about for all of us.

 

[scadreau]

I am interested in the OP's statement "I have so far been against taking classes just to collect cards but this is just what I will be doing by taking this class.". I take classes to gain the knowledge. The card is simply an indication that I gained sufficient knowledge to warrant the certification.

I have no real desire, right now, to ice dive. I live with the thought that if I never had to don my dry suit again, I would be perfectly happy. With that said, I plan to take an ice diver course simply to gain the knowledge of another environment. Even if I don't ever dive under the ice again, how can the additional knowledge hurt? I have taken some silly classes/courses in my life and have always learned something. Now some where I only got a tidbit of new knowledge may not be worth the price, but you could be surprised.

Scott

 

[chrisch]

I am interested in the OP's statement "I have so far been against taking classes just to collect cards but this is just what I will be doing by taking this class.". I take classes to gain the knowledge. The card is simply an indication that I gained sufficient knowledge to warrant the certification....

Some folk like to collect cards for the sake of it. I think that was the point.

One of the good things about an ice dive course is that you get to experience a part of scuba that many people will never see. I'm sure that's why a lot of people book on these courses. If you search the Internet there are some fantastic "courses" that are part of a trip to some frozen part of the world where you will see all sorts of amazing wildlife and so on. Here in Europe there are a lot of courses in frozen lakes where there isn't much to see winter or summer. the attraction is just looking at ice from the "wrong" side.

Whether you need to do a full course for that or not is debatable. (You can do a one dive "experience" at the ski resort of Tignes in France for about US$50 - then go skiing)

For some people the ice is just a nuisance that makes another dive objective harder to do. That opens up the tether or not debate.

Courses can be great fun, but collecting them for the sake of it is a bit sad.

 

[Mr.X]

There are nuances to ice diving. Full cave, cavern etc are helpful with regards to ice diving, but only to a certain extent. An experienced ice diving instructor can show you a lot of things, small things which hopefully never develop to catastrophic. When I mean experienced, I mean experienced. There are doofuses who teach the course and in particular this video is a good warning about a instructor not having the requisite skills: Rescue 911-Episode 316 "Ice Dive Rescue" (Part 1) - YouTube Having taught ice diving course before some of the nuances can include: staying warm topside, use of lines particular to ice diving, reducing failure of equipment, thermal protection/dry gloves/warm dry hoods, cutting ice and tender protocols, etc. The list can be quite extensive.

I liked teaching the course, but man-oh-man on some days when the wind whips up it is a complete drag. Most students never desire to take further courses and are happy saying they did it once. In short, the card isn't so important as the tutelage given by someone who dives under the ice, or cold.