Horrible AOW class in Indiana!

[Hoosier]

Dear all my diver friends,

Please let me have your valuable advices. What shoud I do?

I just had AOW check out dive at the local quarry over weekend. LDS advertised that AOW class includes 5 dives over 2 days. The employed instructor recommended combining AOW with Nitrox or dry suit specialty-class to save the open water check out fee. So, I signed up Nitrox class. I was told that I could have 6 dives with 2 Nitrox tanks in that case. However, I just had three dives over the weekend. On Saturday, I did the Navigation and Peak performance training. On Sunday, LDS gave one 2800 psi, 26 % Nitrox tank and asked DM to dive with me. After 16 minutes, I did the lift bag training with DM for 10 min. And then, I did DPV for 17 minutes. When I went out of water, my SPG only indicates 1000 psi. I expected the second dive, but they said that I made already two dives. Can you believe this story? Even, I couldn’t do a deep dive. LDS said that they can’t find the deep spot so that I couldn’t do it.

What is the distinction of one dive? Did I make two dives on Sunday? Using 1800psi means two dives?

What do two nitrox tanks mean in PADI requirement? Is it an actual two tanks?

We can call 26% mix as a nitrox, not 32% or 36%?

I dived only with DM, not instructor. The instructor, LDS owner, is always on the surface. Is there any standards that student must dive with instructor for the training purpose during the class?

They advertised that I could have a deep diving to complete AOW, but they asked me to go travel with them to complete the deep diving. If then, why do they offer AOW class locally? They didn't mention anything about the trip and deeping spot in advance. Another penny to LDS? NO WAY!

I am wondering how my LDS get PADI membership?

Is there any way to make a report to PADI about this matter?

I am sure that there are many divers who are related with local LDS in this board. How do you run the class? Is it acceptable way for diving class?

Thanks in advance from Indiana.

Hoosier.
P.S. If someone asks me to buy the equipment from the LDS, I would like to say “Go to Hell!”

 

[Iruka]

Generally a "training dive" by PADI standards is a dive of at least 20 minutes, to a depth of 5m (18') or more. A "new" dive would require a surface interval of at least 10 minutes. The instructor is required to be in the water ONLY on the deep dive...and can provide supervision from the surface on the other dives, assuming the student is with a DM or a buddy.

Personally, I've NEVER had an AOW student do a dive without me being right there next to him/her. And I normally shoot for dives of 40~60 minutes, with similar or longer surface intervals. I don't teach nitrox, so I don't know about any particular standards relating to it. Another important point is that (with the exception of nitrox, which I'm not familiar with) is that 2 objectives can't be "combined" on one dive....that is, for example, you can't do a Navigation dive at night, and use it to qualify as the Navigation & Night dives....have to pick one or the other. You don't necessarily need to use 2 tanks for 2 dives....here in Guam, with a shallow dive & small Japanese divers, we can often get 2 45-minute dives out of ONE 63 cu ft tank.


You might want to check first with the dive shop to see if there might have been a misunderstanding; if you're not happy you can contact PADI via their website.

 

[alcina]

Sounds screwy. You are going to have to talk to your LDS and the DM involved to find out the whole story.

Yes, a 26% mix is Nitrox...which you should know from the theory that you were meant to do before the dive...if you haven't done this, you need to again talk to your instructor as it doesn't sound like you are full bottle on the nitrox thing. It is not a usual mix, but it is nitrox.

You cannot complete the PADI AOW without the Deep dive - it is one of two core dives that must be done.

there are a lot of problems in your story and a trip back to the shop for a frank discussion needs to be your first stop. Keep us informed

 

[Hoosier]

Thanks for your inputs so far.

For Nitrox class, I didn’t get any lecture and instruction before the dive. The owner just gave one DVD and book by telling me “it is a self-study class. After studying by yourself, you just take the test in my office.” It costs $140 with 1800 psi, 26% nitrox tank usage with self stuyding. Is it true?

Isn’t it a big safety violation?
If then, do you think I need to talk with my attorney about this matter?

On AOW class, I asked about Nitrox electives material because I couldn’t find that electives on the course pack from PADI. They kept saying, “Don’t worry, we will take care of it.”

I have already paid up to Rescue class as a package class deal. The shop owner told me on Sunday that you might have the deep diving when you do check out diving for rescue certification on April next year. So, what do they mean? I can get the rescue class before getting AOW certification. Who told that I have free time on April?

 

[jagfish]

Hi Hoosier
Were you hurt on the dives, money stolen or was your property damaged? If not, you might pass on the lawyer for now, I don't see what your gain would be.

Might be more productive to make sure you are in full understanding with the instructor about what was promised, what has been done and what still has yet to be done. If things still don't seem kosher, you can contact the certifying agency, I'm sure they would be happy to hear from you.

 

[alcina]

You definitely need to organize a time and sit down with the LDS - their courses do not seem to suit you. From your descriptions they would not suit me either and are not how I would teach.

Good lesson to others here too - ask questions. Make sure you know exactly what you will get on the course. This can be hard coz you probably don't know what you should get on a good course, but a little research should help.

You can ask your instructor for a copy of the standards for each dive. In your logbook (assuming it is the PADI training log) each Adventure Dive (the individual Advanced course dives) has a list of criteria that must be met. You sign this too...don't sign it if you don't think you did it! And there should be an Advanced Training log sheet your instructor has in your student record file. If you don't think you are doing the things listed, then you need to speak up...these basics are also in the Advanced Manual under each section.

Nitrox needs two dives. Most consider one tank per dive as normal, but this could vary and still meet standards...minimum standards. Nitrox can be mostly self-study, but the instructor still has a role to play and at the very very least should be going over any questions you missed or have questions about. Nitrox info is not in the Advanced manual...it has its own complete set of materials.

I personally think you would be jumping the gun to get a lawyer involved. First make a list of your concerns - take this written list with you and make notes. Otherwise you are bound to forget something as you start talking. If you can't seem to get any joy from the instructor or LDS then you will have to consider more options. Talking to the training agency after you have done the first thing is probably the next step.

Get those training records and double check the dive criteria to see if you missed anything during training. The fact that you are not comfortable with the information of the new dives should be more than enough to convince the instructor not to sign them off and to work with you...

 

[DORSETBOY]

re the number of dives, it is poss to take a student in for a dive, bring them back to shallow water where they can stand, debrief them, brief them for a 2nd dive and then take htem back in. I've been told to do this myself a couple of times but I prefer not too as I feel it's better not to encourage task overload.

As said, 26% is nitrox but i'm not sure why that mix would be useful on the basis that your instructor couldn't get a deep enough depth to qualify for the aow deep dive.

On the point of instructor supervision, indirect supervision is poss, I've been inwater as a dm for an instructor myself.

Main thing for me is that if the lds is advertising an aow course, they have to be able to do the deep dive as this is a pre-requisite dive on the aow course.

 

[RichLockyer]

about any particular standards relating to it. Another important point is that (with the exception of nitrox, which I'm not familiar with) is that 2 objectives can't be "combined" on one dive....that is, for example, you can't do a Navigation dive at night, and use it to qualify as the Navigation & Night dives....have to pick one or the other.

Some objectives can be combined. IIRC, Nitrox and Drysuit can be, and maybe others, but they cannot be credited with one of the two "core" AOW dives (nav or deep).

 

[EHill]

Dear all my diver friends,


What is the distinction of one dive? Did I make two dives on Sunday? Using 1800psi means two dives?
I always use one dive as one dive when I teach. Meaning you get in the water and make your dive and all the skills involved. Then get out, do a surface interval and make another dive.

What do two nitrox tanks mean in PADI requirement? Is it an actual two tanks?
PADI requires two NITROX dives for the course. They may be combined with other skills as the "qualification" part is in the dive planning.

We can call 26% mix as a nitrox, not 32% or 36%?
Yes, 26% is NITROX

I dived only with DM, not instructor. The instructor, LDS owner, is always on the surface. Is there any standards that student must dive with instructor for the training purpose during the class?
The instructor must accompany you on the deep or a night dive. A DM may accompany you on the others (may be some other skills that require an istructor's actual supervision..I don't have any references with me).

Is there any way to make a report to PADI about this matter?

You can find out how to contact PADI on their web page. Like everyone else is saying though, make sure there are no misunderstandings between you and the shop/instructor.

Ref the classroom instruction, NITROX may be done as self-study but the instructor should go over the Knowledge Reviews with you and answer any questions you may have. Then you can take the test and they should review any questions you missed to ensure you understand everything. TALK TO YOUR INSTRUCTOR

Bottom line here is you can't combine the skills on the five AOW dives. They must be five separate dives. You CAN combine the NITROX with the AOW skills.Once again, TALK TO YOUR INSTRUCTOR

 

[Nomaster]

Thanks for your inputs so far.

For Nitrox class, I didn’t get any lecture and instruction before the dive. The owner just gave one DVD and book by telling me “it is a self-study class. After studying by yourself, you just take the test in my office.” It costs $140 with 1800 psi, 26% nitrox tank usage with self stuyding. Is it true?

Isn’t it a big safety violation?
If then, do you think I need to talk with my attorney about this matter?

On AOW class, I asked about Nitrox electives material because I couldn’t find that electives on the course pack from PADI. They kept saying, “Don’t worry, we will take care of it.”

I have already paid up to Rescue class as a package class deal. The shop owner told me on Sunday that you might have the deep diving when you do check out diving for rescue certification on April next year. So, what do they mean? I can get the rescue class before getting AOW certification. Who told that I have free time on April?

To this point the whole thing sounds bogus when compared to my PADI experience last month. I'll continue reading, but this doesn't smell like fresh fish to me.
This person isn't trying to win customers and influence you to give him more money, more like he's trying to make you feel the way you do at the moment, a victim with few choices. Talk to him first, but...
The Nitrox, one tank, two less than 20 minute dives is bothering me, tell me more, I'm getting in too deep for the information. Same with the "Let's wait a few months to get you certified" business, what's that?
He told you two days, but did he say six months apart?

Tom