General question about Sony APS-C and Fullframe for wide-angle

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Jyk

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So, I have a cheap system with a Sony A6400 one Inon Z330 Strobe and a cheap Seafrog Housing. I save some money to upgrading my case to use better glass but I'm now at a point where I need to spend some money for the case, at least two grants so I want to get some feedback.

If I will buy a case, the costs for the ports are allmost the same, so I could save some more bugs and could also trade my system for a Fullframe setup. Did you saw some real imporvements by switching to Fullframe? I just have two options for APS-C wide-angle glass (Sony 1018 and Zeiss Touit 12) where I have a great choise of lenses for Fullframe (Sony 16-35, Tamron 17-28, Sony 20 and so on).

Do you think Fullframe is worth it? Or does the gear and the water takes so much quality away from you shots, that it doesn't matter if you use the old Sony 1018 or the new Tamron 17-28 for example?

Thanks for your help. I don't need to buy today, but I looking for your experience.
 
A bigger sensor will make a notable difference, especially in low light performance and ability to crop images. Both of which are very useful underwater.

Good glass does matter too. You'll get sharper images with nicer bokeh with better glass, even underwater.

One reasonable compromise is to have one good main lens and a few good wet lenses. Yes wet lenses are "less quality" than dedicated dry lenses and ports, but if you get good stuff they allow a lot of flexibility.

How do you like that Zeiss 12mm on the A6400? I was thinking of getting one for a very similar camera. Very interested in any reviews on that specific setup for underwater.
 
A bigger sensor will make a notable difference, especially in low light performance and ability to crop images. Both of which are very useful underwater.

Most of underwater images are shot with strobes, so low light performance is not particularly relevant. Full-frame cameras are also highly dependent on very small apertures when working behind a dome port.

One reasonable compromise is to have one good main lens and a few good wet lenses. Yes wet lenses are "less quality" than dedicated dry lenses and ports, but if you get good stuff they allow a lot of flexibility.

This is also a matter of debate. Here, Phil Rudin reports that corner sharpness - a perpetual problem for large sensor cameras - is better with Sony 28-60mm and WWL-1 than with any dome port/lens combination.

If I will buy a case, the costs for the ports are allmost the same, so I could save some more bugs and could also trade my system for a Fullframe setup. Did you saw some real imporvements by switching to Fullframe? I just have two options for APS-C wide-angle glass (Sony 1018 and Zeiss Touit 12) where I have a great choise of lenses for Fullframe (Sony 16-35, Tamron 17-28, Sony 20 and so on).

I'm using the same SeaFrogs housing with A6300, Sony 10-18mm and the SeaFrogs eight-inch dome. Corner sharpness could be better, but it's acceptable. I've done some pool tests with different SeaFrogs ports and lenses, you can see the results here. Keep in mind that if you move to full frame, SeaFrogs does not have a good dome port solution - all they offer are six-inch and eight-inch domes (the latter is closer to seven inches in actual measurements), while the common solution to getting acceptable corner sharpness with full-frame cameras and wide-angle involves a much larger 230mm dome, Sea & Sea internal correction lens, and small (f/11 and up) apertures. If you want good image quality with wide angle on full frame, you'll need one of the big name housings (Nauticam, Aquatica, Subal) and a huge dome that is both very expensive and hard to travel with. I'm actually thinking about selling off my 10-18mm and dome and getting the short macro port + Nauticam WWL-1 to use with 16-50mm instead.
 
I use a Sony A7R3 above water, but for diving, I use an A6000 in a Nauticam housing. The Nauticam 7inch dome (#36129) allows me to use both the Sony 10-18mm f/4 and the Sony/Zeiss 16-70mm f/4 lenses. This setup, combined with 2 Inon S2000 strobes gives me the flexibility that I need in a package that I can fit in my carry-on luggage.
 
How do you like that Zeiss 12mm on the A6400? I was thinking of getting one for a very similar camera. Very interested in any reviews on that specific setup for underwater.
I don't have that specific lens, but I do have a number of Zeiss lenses including some of the Sony/Zeiss ones. In general, I have never regretted buying Zeiss optics.

The only negative that I have heard about that particular lens for diving is that depending on which housing/port you are using, the integral lens hood may have issues fitting into your dome port.
 
I shoot A7R3 in Sea and Sea housing, dual YS D2 strobes. Sony 90 for sharp macro. Sony Zeiss 16-35 f4 for wide angle. This latter lens can often be bought used for a reasonable price. Its not razor sharp like the f2.8, but I never shoot wide open underwater, its a lot cheaper, and frankly, I almost never peep into the corners.
 
I shoot A7R3 in Sea and Sea housing, dual YS D2 strobes. Sony 90 for sharp macro. Sony Zeiss 16-35 f4 for wide angle. This latter lens can often be bought used for a reasonable price. Its not razor sharp like the f2.8, but I never shoot wide open underwater, its a lot cheaper, and frankly, I almost never peep into the corners.

Question is, what port do you shoot it with? If the OP doesn't invest in a $3500 housing like yours, and a $2500 dome to put in front of it, the SeaFrogs solution would be something like this, and anything away from center is going to suffer.
 
... you'll need one of the big name housings (Nauticam, Aquatica, Subal) and a huge dome that is both very expensive and hard to travel with. I'm actually thinking about selling off my 10-18mm and dome and getting the short macro port + Nauticam WWL-1 to use with 16-50mm instead ...

My general approach would be, to opt for a Nauticam or Isotta housing. My cheap seafrog housing wasn't the best quality (the one woth no port options). So I want to save some money for a good solution. What keeps me away from a wetlens are the reports about bad results for half/half shots. But Im still in the phase, where I collect as many informations as possible. It will be choise between the next Sony APS-C or the A7 IV or A7C, depending on the results.

From now on, I only have the Sony A6400, the bad kitlens, the good SEL1655G (No Port options at them moment) and the Zeiss Touit 50 for macro maybe.
 
My general approach would be, to opt for a Nauticam or Isotta housing. My cheap seafrog housing wasn't the best quality (the one woth no port options). So I want to save some money for a good solution. What keeps me away from a wetlens are the reports about bad results for half/half shots.

I've found the results with 10-18mm and SeaFrogs 8-inch dome to be adequate; it's more of a case of my skills as a photographer being lacking rather than the gear holding me back. It works pretty well for splits too, although if that is your focus, then you want as large a port as possible - there's a company that makes 12-inch and 17-inch domes specifically for over/unders (they're not rated to any significant depth) - and wet lenses tend to not have a very large front element.

I wouldn't call the kit lens bad per se; it's not sharp wide open, but underwater images are typically shot at f/8 and smaller, and it's plenty sharp in this range. Most photography reviews focus on lens performance when set wide open, as that is where quality glass is typically differentiated from the cheap stuff, but underwater this is largely irrelevant. WWL-1 gives very good results when paired with 28-60mm on full frame, 16-50mm on APS-C or 14-42mm on M4/3; lenses that 'serious' land photographers tend to scoff at.

Edit: I just realized your SeaFrogs housing is the older model with fixed port, not the Salted Line one. I actually had that before Salted Line and sold it after upgrading. It should work just as well as any other housing for using 16-50mm + WWL-1 combination, although the part that's really lacking on it is a vacuum port - now that I've had a vacuum system for several years, I wouldn't dream of diving a housing without one. A full-frame setup will provide a marginal improvement in image quality, at a great increase in cost (be prepared to spend around $15-20k, between the top-quality housing, the ports, the camera body, the lenses, the strobes - a single Z-330 won't cut it - and other accessories), bulk and travel weight.
 
From now on, I only have the Sony A6400, the bad kitlens, the good SEL1655G (No Port options at them moment) and the Zeiss Touit 50 for macro maybe.

Circling back on this, I have just come back from a photography workshop liveaboard trip to North Andaman Sea. We did ten dives at Richelieu Rock, one dive at Koh Bon, two at Koh Tachai and two blackwater dives. Of those fifteen dives, I ended up using my 90mm macro on three, 7.5mm fisheye on one, 10-18mm on four, and the "bad kitlens" on seven, and it gave me some of the best shots of the trip. I loved, loved the flexibility that it gave me, even shooting it from behind a dome without wet lenses. Granted, the circumstances were very favorable - crystal clear water (30+ meters of visibility) and I had a very powerful pair of strobes (Retra Pros, with reflectors for when I wanted some extra reach) to back it up, but I found that at 16mm, I could easily step back a little and fit big chunks of reef, large sea fans, fish schools, etc, into the frame, then twist the zoom knob forward and go chasing after individual fish portraits and behavior shots, then come in close and do near-macro stuff like ghost pipefish and seahorses. Now I'm seriously considering selling off my 10-18mm and all the domes and getting a short macro port plus WWL-C.
 
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