Gas Mixture Dangers/Complications

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baenglish73

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I read that He-based gas offer a reduced risk of narcosis and therefore can be used at greater depths. So now I'm curious.

The only con I've read on this board or in attempts to locate the dangers of He is that it is expensive.

1) Are there any additional benefits to using He?
2) What are the dangers of using a He-based gas?
a) Will lighter/smaller molecules diffuse in/out of tissue faster?
b) Can you still get narcosis with He? If yes, when?
3) What is the deepest anyone has dived and recovered on SCUBA?
 
baenglish73 once bubbled...
I read that He-based gas offer a reduced risk of narcosis and therefore can be used at greater depths. So now I'm curious.

The only con I've read on this board or in attempts to locate the dangers of He is that it is expensive.

1) Are there any additional benefits to using He?
2) What are the dangers of using a He-based gas?
a) Will lighter/smaller molecules diffuse in/out of tissue faster?
b) Can you still get narcosis with He? If yes, when?
3) What is the deepest anyone has dived and recovered on SCUBA?

1. Yes
2. Depth, deco obligations, death.
yes
no, as you eventually get to heliox. But you can get HPNS
3. Got me. Over 1000' on rebreathers.

You might want to do a search in the tek section here for additional information as this is a very broad subject and not easily answered in a few words.

MD
 
Dear baenglish:

Are there any additional benefits to using He?

Helium is definitely beneficial for the avoidance of narcosis. It is a gas with lower solubility, and divers are more resistant to DCS when breathing this gas compared to nitrogen.

What are the dangers of using a He-based gas?

There could be conditions where decompression is required and the helium-based gas is gone. In addition to availability, helium/oxygen is more costly than air (as you mentioned).

Will lighter/smaller molecules diffuse in/out of tissue faster?

They will diffuse into the tissue faster. They will also diffuse through tissue and into bubbles faster than nitrogen.

Can you still get narcosis with He? If yes, when?

You cannot get narcosis from helium. In fact, there is a phenomenon called Helium Pressure Reversal of Narcosis.

What is the deepest anyone has dived and recovered on SCUBA?

I believe that the deepest scuba dives have been cave penetrations. It is somewhere on the order of 700 feet deep.

Dr Deco :doctor:
 
Dr Deco once bubbled...
Dear baenglish:

I believe that the deepest scuba dives have been cave penetrations. It is somewhere on the order of 700 feet deep.

Dr Deco :doctor:

If you included rebreathers as "scuba", I know a gentleman who has been to 1025 fsw on one.

MD
 
Thanks Dr D.

I've done subsequent "internet research" trying to focus beyond the patina of technology that masks "internet data". I was wondering if recreational triox is for me. Mt Sinai had a decent site and implanted a lot of caution, triox sure doesn't seem very recreational.


MechDiver once bubbled...


If you included rebreathers as "scuba"

MD

Based on the acronym, it just might be. hmmmmm
 
There was a dive done this year or last of over a 1000' on OC in Open water.
 
Dr Deco once bubbled...
Dear baenglish:


Can you still get narcosis with He? If yes, when?

You cannot get narcosis from helium. In fact, there is a phenomenon called Helium Pressure Reversal of Narcosis.

Dr Deco :doctor:

As always, Doc, you come up with fascinating stuff. Care to hold forth at more length on "Helium Pressure Reversal of Narcosis"?

:confused:
 
Dear Readers:

Anesthesia

Many compounds will cause general anesthesia when inhaled. Among these are the familiar organic compounds such as ether and chloroform. To this can be added inorganic nitrous oxide (laughing gas), nitrogen (when encountered under pressure during diving) and the inert gas, xenon. These materials do not bear any similarity in chemical structure, and it lead one to the conclusion that anesthesia by these compounds is a physical phenomenon, especially when xenon is considered.

The Overton-Meyer hypothesis related anesthetic potency to the ratio of solubility of a compound in both water and oil (the lipid-water partition coefficient). It did not however state that this solubility was the cause of anesthesia , only that there was a correlation of some molecular property that was also related to anesthetic potency.

Mechanisms

Several decades ago, Mullins proposed that anesthetics would expand lipid cellular membranes and interfere, probably, with the transport of ions across them. [The movement of sodium and potassium ions is responsible for the conduction of the nerve signal.] The concept of expansion was based on the earlier observation that pressure applied to an anesthetized animal would reverse the anesthetic state. The hypothesis was that the conformation ( = shape) of the molecule/s of the membrane would change the diffusion ( rate of passage ) of ions through the lipid membrane. This passage, thus, would be made more difficult. The pressure can be applied by means of a piston or by a compressed gas that is itself non-narcotic. The only one that will work is helium.

The current speculation is that lipid membranes per se are not related to the ion exchange process. Proteins embedded within the membrane structure move the ions.

What Else?

Curiously, many biomacromolecules posses a three dimensional shape and these shapes are modified by pressure. Many animals will die if brought up to the surface from very deep depths. It is likewise thought that animals from the surface would eventually reach a point when pressure would begin to affect the structural integrity of the molecules. For example, raw eggs lowered to 10,000 feet in the ocean and brought up appear as if they were hard boiled. This is an example of denaturation and something similar would doubtlessly occur to a hapless diver making such an excursion.

Dr Deco :doctor:

References :book2:

Cullen S, Gross E. The anesthetic properties of xenon in animals and human beings, with additional observations on krypton. Science 1951; 113:580-582.

Franks N, Lieb W. Molecular and cellular mechanisms of general anaesthesia. Nature 1994; 367:607-614.

Koblin D. Mechanisms of Action In: R. D. Miller, ed. Anesthesia. 5th ed. Philadelphia: Churchill Livingston, 2000; 48-73.

Mullins L. Some physical mechanisms in narcosis. Chem Rev 1954; 54:289-323.

Miller K, Paton W, Smith R, et al. The pressure reversal of general anesthesia and the critical volume hypothesis. Mol Pharmacol 1973; 9:131-143.

MR Powell. The Role of the Noble Gas Series in Molecular Pharmacology, In: A Guide to Molecular Pharmacology-Toxicology, Vol. II. Chapter 13. [R.M. Featherstone, ed.], Marcel Dekker, New York, (1973).
 
If I understand this correctly, when we mix up a batch of tri-mix, we are doing so to reduce the partial pressure of Nitrogen at the target depth to reduce narcosis. We are also reducing the partial pressure of Oxygen at the target depth to reduce the chances of Oxygen toxicity. In the prosess we add Helium to the mixture, and this Helium is then offering a further 'sobering' effect on us by acting as an anti-narcotic drug of sorts when under pressure?

Would this mean that our calculations for trimix will be modified in the future to account for this, resulting in less Helium needed to acheive the same reduced narcosis? Or am I jumping to conclusions here?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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