Fills - time for the overpriced LDSs to expire!

[Genesis]

This is how it should be done....

http://www.fillexpress.com/fills.shtml#prices

About half the prevailing price around here, and cleaner air besides.

Time to put some of the overpriced folks out of business.

 

[detroit diver]

That's relatively inexpensive, but I doubt that they're making a whole lot of money on fills. They must rely on some huge volume to offer those prices.

 

[Scuba]

detroit diver,

I would'nt want my LDS to make

a whole lot of money on fills.

That goes to show that while some LDS's may not be able to provide these prices, many others are making

a whole lot of money on fills.

.

 

[detroit diver]

Scuba,

NO ONE is making money on fills-at these prices or any of the current standard prices. They use it as a service item.

You've got to allow your LDS to make money-or they're not going to be around when you need them. I don't own an LDS and am not affiliated with one, but I sure use one every week to fill my tanks. Without them, either I'm buying a compressor, or going long distances to get fills. I purchase most equipment from them-the owner is smart enough to work with you when the need arises. I can't speak for other shops....

 

[Genesis]

I'm tired of the scare-tactic games, and so are a growing number of divers.

They don't make money at the "standard" prices for Nitrox fills? What 'ya smoking, man? The O2 in an 80 cube nitrox fill costs under a buck, yet the differential between the nitrox and air fill is closer to $5 than $1.

And that's if you don't have a membrane system...

 

[OkieDiver]

Genesis, you're such an expert (from what i've read on this board) on dive shops, why don't you open one and show us how it should be done. Please don't quote us the "I've been a CEO, etc". That's getting a little tired also. I mean no disrespect but all you do on this board for the most part is bash dive shops. I for one would like to know how it should really be done if everyone else is doing it wrong.

 

[mddolson]

I think there's a screw loose.
Those prices are absurd.
Air fill prices have not changed since the 80's and nobody make money of fills.
To offer nitrox fills for half the going rate is clearly a loss leader to bring in customer traffic.
The prices quote price per cu ft of gas.
How about factoring in :
compressor maintanence
electricity
filter costs
labor

I do not own a shop by the way!


my 2 cents worth

Mike D
:blfish:

 

[detroit diver]

Genesis once bubbled...
I'm tired of the scare-tactic games, and so are a growing number of divers.

They don't make money at the "standard" prices for Nitrox fills? What 'ya smoking, man? The O2 in an 80 cube nitrox fill costs under a buck, yet the differential between the nitrox and air fill is closer to $5 than $1.

And that's if you don't have a membrane system...

And what are the carrying costs of the equipment? The liability insurance? The labor to do the work? The maintainence on the units? The rental charges for the bottles? The floor space that your equipment takes up (that you are paying rent on)?

It's all part of running a business, and it's not cheap. My liability insurance shot up along with everyone else's this year due to 9/11, and I've never had a claim in 65 years of business (no, I'm not that old!). Your LDS was not excused from this I assure you. The travel business as everyone knows suffered this past year and that affected all the LDS's. Less people traveling = less stuff sold. But the overhead stayed the same....

Tell me something-where can you go and enjoy something- as much as we do with scuba- for $5.00 an hour? $10.00 an hour?

For me, it's not the price of the gas-it's my perceived notion of what I'm getting for the money that I spend. I get an hour of absoute quiet, weightlessness, interesting sights, with a couple of good friends for 5 bucks. I consider that a bargain!

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Genesis once bubbled...
I'm tired of the scare-tactic games, and so are a growing number of divers.

They don't make money at the "standard" prices for Nitrox fills? What 'ya smoking, man? The O2 in an 80 cube nitrox fill costs under a buck, yet the differential between the nitrox and air fill is closer to $5 than $1.

And that's if you don't have a membrane system...

Genesis:

Your analysis is flawed and inaccurate.

Pleaes identify all "scare-tactic games" involved in the claim that LDS's that don't make enough of a profit to satisfy their owners will close.

Please identify, by name, the "growing number of diver" who are tired of the aforementioned scare-tactic games. Your imaginary friends don't count.

Before your views are entitled to consideration, you must prove that you are somehow qualified. Otherwise, your posts are little more than the rantings of a crank with an attitude and a cash flow problem. Accordingly:

Please state the average amount of thime that it takes to do a partial pressure Nitrox fill of an AL80, HP100, HP120, double LP95 and double LP104 (the standard tanks where I dive).

Please state the average cost to the LDS (salary + benefits + taxes) of the employee who fills the tanks.

Please state the average employee cost per fill.

Please state the amortized capital cost of a partial pressure system, using GAAP rules for amortization of capital equipment.

Please state the amortized capital cost of a membrane Nitrox system, using GAAP rules for amortization of capital equipment.

Please state the amortized indirect capital cost, based on square footage occupied as a percentage of total square footage, of both of the aforementioned Nitrox systems.

Please state the total cost of insurance associated with operating a fill station (you may indicate if this cost is factored into any of the aforementioned costs by breaking it out in those answers).

Please state the direct expense associated with operating the both of the aformentioned systems.

Please state all other costs, not mentioned above, associated with the operation of the fill station.

Please state what you consider to be an allowable profit for each air fill and the reasons therefore.

Please state the source of each and every one of the facts set forth above.

After you have answered each and every one of these questions, then I'll be interested in hearing what you have to say about LDS economics. Until then, get off your soap box and get a life.

You seem to think that you are entitled to some type of special treatment or that dive shops are evil because they are charging too much. Guess what. If you don't like the prices, then go somewhere else. If you can't find a price that you like, then stop diving or buy your own LDS and show us how its done.

If I owned an LDS and had a customer like you, you'd pay $50.00 per fill and be charged for parking.

Could the prices you pay have anything to do with your rotten attitude. My LDS doesn't even charge me for fills, even when I'm getting high O2 deco blends. I guess that it has something to do with the fact that I don't spend most of my time nickel and diming them to death and complaining when I don't get my way.

I strongly suggest that you stop wasting bandwidth until you can prove that you know what you are talking about.

In the meantime, have a nice day.

 

[Genesis]

don't go far with me.

Its trivially easy to price O2 in bottles, you know. Tank lease prices aren't exactly secret. Neither is the cost of the gas.

You say "well, I have a sunk cost in that compressor". Of course you do. Its called capital equipment, it depreciates on an IRS-mandated schedule, etc etc etc.

If you can sell air fills at $4.50, and I know for a fact that the O2 that you put in the bottle for an EANx32 fill costs less than $1.00, because I've priced it, then exactly what is the OTHER $3.50 if not profit?

You think that people should not understand that LDSs are taking advantage of people's desire to dive enriched air? Why? They ARE, and that's a fact.

You think its "bashing" to point out that LDSs are gouging their customers and then engage in scare tactics to try to keep them loyal?

I disagree.

Set up a dive shop? Why would I want to participate in a marketplace that is full of price-fixing, manipulation, lies, scare-tactics and slander?

I EXITED a line of work not all that long ago - a VERY profitable line of work at that - when it got to the point that I had to take a shower after leaving work lest I felt dirty due to the degredation in character of that line of business in general.

No thanks.

NEWrecks, you just made my point for me.

If your shop fills your bottles for FREE, then others are paying YOUR costs. YOU are part of the problem. Directly. Gee, big surprise that you're unhappy that I'm calling these shops on it.

You don't like my criticism?

Too darn bad.

When you, as a shop owner, open your books to me, and let me see ALL of your costs and revenues, accounted for under GAAP rules, audited (and not by AA either!), and let me do DD on your operation to my satisfaction, then I'll believe you.

Until then I don't and won't, because an honest business has no need to claim that their competitors are practicing "bait and switch" (when they aren't) or lying about the complexity of design and maintenance for the hardware used in this sport.

As for my garfing, my primary dive buddy and I are considering investing in a compressor this winter and setting up a fill station in my garage. I've already done the math on it and concluded that within a year it will pay for itself - using it for just the TWO of us. (Of course we do dive a LOT.)

There ARE a few firms - like the aforementioned one at the top of this thread - that have figured out that superior service and volume discounts for those who buy a LOT of gas are a good idea. The typical "fill card" from most LDSs is a joke and in no way is a rational discount off "list".