f-stop and wide angle

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Scotttyd

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Location
Raleigh, NC
# of dives
500 - 999
I need a little help understanding the role of f-stop during wide angle photography. For the purposes of my questions, lets assume, WA using available light (no strobe) or large items such as wrecks, etc. I have heard others recommend a f-stop of 7 or so for WA and adjust the shutter speed as needed for proper exposure. Why would you want to use such a small aperature? (for P&S that is near the smaller limit of availablity). Most of my wrecks (here in NC) are going to be very deep, and when using available light, I would think you would want a larger aperature to best use the available light? Is my thinking wrong? I might need such a low shutter speed that I risk blur?

This is how I was thinking it through - remember I am a newbie with manual shooting.

I find the correct shutter speed for what I want my background to best the best blue that I want, then adjust f-stop to get the best exposure of the wreck?
 
Some things...
Even though it is probably used behind a dome, where the min. focus distance and the infinity stay feet, sometimes inches from each other, the f/8 aperture helps with Depth of Field (DoF).
Second reason is that the picture you describe is already lacking on contrast, so you not only need everything in sharply in focus, but the best contrast/resolution from your lens, which is usually found at these medium apertures (sometimes even at f/5.6 with some DX lenses),

For P&S work, there is no much difference in DoF, as long as you are happy with the IQ you are getting, you can open it up. I would do a test in one dive, just shoot like 6 pics at mode A with all the f-stops you have and see what's best for you.
 
I need a little help understanding the role of f-stop during wide angle photography. For the purposes of my questions, lets assume, WA using available light (no strobe) or large items such as wrecks, etc. I have heard others recommend a f-stop of 7 or so for WA and adjust the shutter speed as needed for proper exposure. Why would you want to use such a small aperature? (for P&S that is near the smaller limit of availablity). Most of my wrecks (here in NC) are going to be very deep, and when using available light, I would think you would want a larger aperature to best use the available light? Is my thinking wrong? I might need such a low shutter speed that I risk blur?

This is how I was thinking it through - remember I am a newbie with manual shooting.

I find the correct shutter speed for what I want my background to best the best blue that I want, then adjust f-stop to get the best exposure of the wreck?

Well you could start with not listening to all of that about settings. On your P&S you would have to stop the lens down all the way, f8 etc is near or at the upper limit. Wide angle lenses have great depth of field, even at wide apertures you should have sufficient depth of field. A wide aperture will soften edges, so what, the lens you have stacked on your P&S lens is a compromise at best.

There are no "settings," everybody always wants a magic setting, there is no such thing. Here is my scenario, with the camera in Av, set the aperture to the highest number that gives you at least 1/60th second at ISO100. If the shutter speed drops into the "shake" zone open the lens up another stop. At some point, since P&S are severely limited on both ends of the f stop range, you will have to either bump the ISO up or accept a very low shutter speed.

For any given lens, more discernible with longer focal length lenses, depth of field increases with f stop, f16 will have much greater depth of field than will f 2.8 on the same lens. Yes, real cameras with real lenses have f stops that can range from f1.0 to f32. Great depth of field is not always a good thing, if you wish to isolate the subject from the foreground and background (a candid) a photographer will choose a small f stop and if the photographer wants the foreground, subject and background in focus (a landscape) then he/she will choose a higher f stop. Additionally, short focal length lenses have proportionally greater depth of field than longer focal length lenses by the laws of optical physics.

Each full f stop is equivalent to doubling or halving the light reaching the sensor, each doubling or halving of the shutter speed does the same thing. FACT, example, f8 @ 1/60 second is the same as f5.6 @ 1/125 is the same as f16 @ 1/30 is the same as f4 @ 1/250 etc. Yes, those are all equivalent exposures, now, which "setting" do you want?

Fact, if you set your camera to manual and then use the suggested exposure setting the meter indicates you have just accomplished essentially what the camera would have done had you left it in auto mode. There is no real reason to use manual exposure except when you desire to override the cameras exposure system or operate a strobe which has limited ability to sync with shutter speeds etc.

If you are photographing a large object then choose the highest fstop that you can expose without introducing shake in order to maximize depth of field.

As well, by the laws of optical physics and the inability of humans to create perfect optical designs, most lenses are slightly softer at small f stops (f1.2, f 2.8 etc) than compared to the same lens at a higher f stop (f8, f16 etc).

Vignetting with your wet mount wide angle lens may also be more pronounced at smaller numerical f stops.

BTW, DOF and focal length are related by optical equations, I will not give them to you, you can do your own research, suffice it to say, the DOF of a P&S like your 590/P5100 etc calculates just as it would for a 35mm or a 2.25 square or a DX sensor or a telescope at your local astronomy club.

N
 
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Scotty,
DSLR's have great performance at high ISO and F8 isn't really stopped down that much for them either. For your camera (nikon p5100) at wreck depths, I think you will need to start around f5.6 or 4 and work from there. My guess is that opening up to 2.8 will work fine as you shouldn't have an issue with DOF with wrecks unless you are right on top of them.
 
Not saying this is a great wreck photo, notice depth of field:

IMG_0903.jpg


f4, 1/60, ISO100, Canon 570, strobe used in external auto for fill, camera in Av auto mode

F8 and X/X sec shutter speed is f8 and X/X sec with a 35mm regardless of the camera, P&S or SLR or box camera, now, I should know the answer but I have not thought about it enough to know if an exposure is the same technically across the digital spectrum due to sensor size, I would think it is but like I said, I have not done the math to back it up, maybe somebody knows?

I should have gotten closer and moved my camera angle to the right, opened up to f2.6 to get a faster shutter speed but I still sort of like the way my wife looks suspended along the wreck, notice her legs are blurred from the slow shutter speed:

IMG_0864.jpg


f5.6, 1/30 second, ISO100, Canon 570, strobe off, camera in Av auto mode

She wants me to come hold her hand, isn't that sweet:

IMG_0592.jpg


f4.0, 1/60 sec, ISO100, Canon 570, strobe fired in external auto mode for subject fill, camera in Av mode

I wonder if he has a "setting" in or if he adjusts his camera to achieve a specific result conceived in his mind's eye:

IMG_0713.jpg


f3.5, 1/60 sec, ISO100, Canon 570, strobe fired in external auto mode, camera in Av mode

All pics shot with Inon 100WAL Type II behind Inon dome corrector.


N
 
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You were very sharp and wise through all your post. Really good!!!

But would you mind a minor comment? There is a heavy ongoing discussion about DoF on other forum, and I feel the info would be good here.

DOF and focal length are related by optical equations... ... the DOF of a P&S like your 590/P5100 etc calculates just as it would for a 35mm or a 2.25 square or a DX sensor or a telescope at your local astronomy club.

In fact DoF is not related by optical equations to Focal Length.
It is just mathematical related to:
- Circle of Confusion (for the format or print), which varies if you are into Large, Medium, 35mm, APS-C or smaller compacts.
- Effective Aperture
- Magnification (again for the camera, print or total, depending on what DoF we are talking about)

A practical example is.

If you shoot a model, let's say 5m away, from the same position (no perspective
change), with a zoom lens set at f/8 (for example), with the lens at 18mm then with the same lens at 200mm the Depth of Field is exactly the same.

The shot at 200mm works as a "crop" of the 18mm shot, with the same DoF.

Normal happy people can STOP READING HERE.

For the ones who took the Matrix's RED PILL:

For Geometric Depth of Field
T = (2 * C * N * ( 1 + m))/m2
And for the DoF in Print:
Tp = (2 * Cp * N * ((M * Z) + M2))/Z2

Where:
C: Circle of Confusion
Cp: Circle of Confusion in Print
Defined by C = Cp/M

T: Depth of Field
Tp: Depth of Field in Print
N: Aperture (in f-number)

m: Magnification
M: Magnification in Print
Z: Total Magnification
Defined by Z = m * M
 
Thank you for your explanation, like most things that seem simple at first, further invstigation reveals increasing complexity, like the rabbit hole in Alice in Wonderland, you can drop into a strange world. N
 
I always start with f ~5 toward the surface(ie shallower depths) and go down to in the 2's-lower 3's maybe- the deeper you go.....see some of my pics in my sig, that's all I've ever done using my A570........Experiment with digital, you do have instant feedback being able to view the shot....note: I do not use WA with the 570 but is there alot of differece?, I know when I used(for ~15 yrs) 35 mm WA it was all the same theory.....
 
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