Double HP130's; am I crazy?

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gumbo717

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Location
NC
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1000 - 2499
I have read some of the discussion on the board about how heavy double HP130's are but are they worth putting together for a set?

I made the switch from diving single HP130 to double LP85's and I have been practicing with them for about a year. My single HP130's have been sitting and I may have used them once in the past year. I have mentioned putting them together for one large set but was told that they are wicked heavy and are too much for boat diving. I dive most of the time in a quarry but do get out to NJ a few times a year and down to NC a couple times a year. Some say that if I put them together that would be all I need to do two dives in NC but is the extra weight worth putting them together?

I have used the HP130 to whip over to the LP85's between dives.

Thanks,

jt
 
HP130s weigh about 43 pounds each compared to 37 pounds each for Faber 95s and 33 pounds each for HP100s.

I notice the difference between double HP100s and double LP95s coming up the ladder in large seas, but that is not to say that an extra 20 pounds in weight between double HP100s and double HP130s would be a deal breaker.

On the other hand, it does not make much sense to select your back gas tanks for the comparatively few deep dives you may do that require an entire 260 cu ft.

My preference is to use double HP100s on NC wreck dives and as quarry tanks as they are lighter in weight and offer more than enough gas for the average 2 dive NC wreck trip. 100 cu ft per dive is more than enough to get you into mild deco at the normal 80-120' NC recreational wreck depths, and 200 cu ft is usually more than enough for a single dive with significant deco at deeper depths, unless you are way off shore and diving in the 200-240' range.

If you bring a single set of HP100s for two recreational dives, on the first dive you have lots of reserve gas and in most cases you end around 2000 psi, leaving enough reserve for the second usually slightly shorter dive.

On deeper dives where you need more reserve, or on deep/long single dives where may actually need 250-260 cu ft of gas, you can dive a stage. On a two deeper dive trip, use stage on the first dive to leave another 65-70 cu ft in the back gas for the second dive. On a deep single dive, using the stage along with the HP100s gives you basically the same 260 cu ft as would double 130s.

The weight penalty is not as significant as you would first suspect. An AL72 only weighs 28 pounds and an AL80 about 31 pounds, so even with a third reg and stage rig, you are only gaining about 12-15 pounds total on those few deeper dives you make with a stage. And you can send the stage up the ladder separately, meaning you still come up the ladder 20 pounds lighter than with HP130s. In contrast, if you dive double HP130s, you will be carrying the extra 20 pounds of weight on every dive you do.
 
I have been diving PST 130's now for a while and love them. I do find them difficult at times when doing rough shore entries.

I keep two sets of doubles.

- Double AL80's for the every day diving from shore or simple boat dives
- Double PST 130's for any extended range diving or multi dive charters

I am a bigger guy so the weight is not a big trade off, I require a fair share of lead for the AL80s.
 
I know three people who dive with HP 130's including me, and another couple with LP 104's (basically the same thing) and no complaints. They work great for deeper 2-tank boat dives and have appropriate back gas for a safe ascent with a teammate. They are a little heavy but very manageable, and I'm only 5'8, 170ish lbs. They can also be used on extended shallow dives and have done a couple nearing the 3 hour mark. It's a matter of preference and a matter of matching your gas supply with your teammates to know when to turn a dive. There are easy formulas which you are probably aware of for this. You can print out cheat sheets which can be easily laminated and put in your wet notes to do the math on a boat for a double check or an instabuddy.
 
In Russia we are count by metric system, so it's difficult to me understand what is HP130 or LP104.
If you mean as HP130 is 18 litres doubles, i think they are very heavy. Lot of gas, but difficult to put them on and get of the car to water.
Agree with Michael_Lambert to use this when need extended range diving.
I know 2 peoples who use them. They are full cave and use heavy twins only in difficult cave dives. Normally they use double 80. (But in Russia i don't know any people who use AL bottle only steel)

IMHO if you neet additionl gas - take AL80 as stage with twins of 80 as primary
 
There are easy formulas which you are probably aware of for this. You can print out cheat sheets which can be easily laminated and put in your wet notes to do the math on a boat for a double check or an instabuddy.
No need for cheat sheets, tank factors are pretty simple in both concept and execution.

For example, if you are diving double 95s you just need to know the capacity at a given service pressure. A 95 holds 95.1 cu ft at 2640 psi.

Divide the capacity by the service pressure and take it times 100 and you get the tank factor: (95.1/2640)(100)=3.6.

Since you are diving doubles, you double the tak factor: 3.6x2= 7.2

What that means is that each 100 psi = 7.2 cu ft.

An X8-130 holds 130 cu ft at 3442 psi and if you do the math you get a tank factor of 7.5 for double 130s. You'll notice it is very close to the tank factor of double LP 95s as their internal volumes are very similar. In fact you can use the tank factor to see what doiuble LP95s willhold if cave filled to 3600 psi. 36x7.2= 259 cu ft.

An X7-100 on the other hand holds 100 cu ft at 3442 psi and double 100s have a tank factor of 5.8, which is a significant difference.

In technical diving, your reserve gas is also in essence your buddys reserve gas, so you alwyas want to ensure you have enough gas in any set of tanks to get anyone on the team out. That's what is meant by gas matching.

Lets say you are diving with 130s and your buddy has 100s and they are all filled to 3500 psi. 1/3rd of your gas supply is considered the minimum reserve so you use a third going in ,a third exiting and athird in reserve. SAC rate is not the big concern, what is the big concern is the concern is that you both turn on the same volume of gas and with different tanks, that third is different. Normally you take the first pressure divisible by 3and divide it by three to get your "third" . In this case 3300/3=1100 per third for both the 100s and 130s.

However, 5.8x11= 63.8 cu ft while 7.5x11=82.5. This creates a problem as if the diver with larger tanks used 80 cu ft of this third going in and then had a problem and lost all his gas,, the 63 cu ft the diver with the smaller tanks has in reserve will not be enough to get the other diver out of the cave.

So you take take the smallet third on the team (63.8 cu ft) and divide it by your own tank factor to get the number of Ppsi for yopur third. 63.8/7.5=8.5, or 850 psi. So rather than turning at 2400 psi (3500-1100=2400) you will turn at 2650 psi (3500-850=2650).

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In the real world, to keep the math simpler, it works like this.

1. The diver with the small tanks notes he has 3500 psi in his 100s, figures out he will use 1100 psi per third and takes this times 6 (rounds up 5.8) and decides he has a 66 cu ft third. (Or if he is a bit better with numbers, will take 5.8x1000 = 58, then add 5.8 cu ft (the left over 100x5.8) to get 63.8).

But we'll assume he is math challenged and call it 66 cu ft as the 2.2 cu ft difference will probably get lost in the noise of gauge error anyway, and in this case you are already discounting 1/3rd of 200 psi from the third calculation by using a start pressure of 3300 rather than 3500, creating a 1 cu ft pad. (But in the real world, again the diver with 100's will quickly memorize his thirds at common fill pressures.)

2. The diver with 130s also notes he has 3500 psi, rounds down to 3300 and normally would have an 1100 psi third, turning at 2400 psi. But he knows the other diver has smaller tanks, and upon figuring/learning the size of that third, takes the 66 cu ft and divides it by 8. Being a little math impaired himself, he knows 8x8=64 (800psi) and that 64 is close to 66 (and more conservative) so he will turn after using 800 psi (at 2700 psi).

As long as the person with the big tanks rounds up on the tank factor he uses to figure his turn pressure, any rounding errors tend to come out in the wash. In this case, the diver with 100s really has 64 cu ft thirds and after all the rounding, the diver with the big tanks is turning only 50 psi on the conservative side of his actual 2650 turn pressure - and that 50 psi difference is more precise than the accuracy of his SPG.

So...you can keep the math simple and figure in your head in the water just before you ascend.

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To add another wrinkle, lets say the guy with the 130s got a bad fill or already did a dive and only has 2200 psi 22x7.5= 165 (or round down to 7 and get 154). Either one is less than the 200 cu ft the guy with the doubel 100s has, so you will turn on the volume of tanks with the least gas in them - in this case the underfilled 130's.

He starts wth 2100 psi and estimates 700 psi thirds. He is conservative and takes it times 7 to get 49 cu ft, or knows that the leftover .5x7=3.5 more cu ft and adds it in to get 52 cu ft.

The guy with the 100s takes that 52 and divides by his tank factor of 5.8 (and rounds up to 6 to be conservative) to figure that 6x8=48 (800 psi) and 6x9=54 (900 psi) and dedcides to split the difference with an 850 psi third. 3500-850 means he will turn at 2650 psi rather than 2400 psi to ensure his reserve matches his buddy's reserve.

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It is pretty easy if you do a little practice at home to get comfortable with how to set up the equations in your head. Do the math first, then do it in your head rounding and using using digit tank factors in either one or two steps to see how it works. If you are still struggling, Mark Vlahos here on the board has an excel spread sheet with tank factors and turn pressures for most tanks in a matrix format.
 
I know I don't want to carry double 130s, but my husband and I have been using the "small doubles and transfill from the 130" strategy for a couple of years, and it works pretty darned well for the times when you want to do two dives that exceed the capacity of the smaller tanks.
 
I'm with DA. I've dived 130's and 140's, and IMHO, unless you really need that much gas, it is too much out-of-the-water hassle. The 140's were nice to have on the 300' dive, but otherwise I preferred my 100's on the majority of my diving down to the 200' range. I have a set of 95's as well, and it's a nice option to be able to overfill them and actually get more gas than the 100's, but I still prefer the 100's for overall comfort in and out of the water.

Now however, I'm CCR, so my double 20cf tanks give me all the gas I need. And there's a 140cf with dil in my basement which will give me enough gas until spring. :eyebrow:
 
I have read some of the discussion on the board about how heavy double HP130's are but are they worth putting together for a set? ... I have mentioned putting them together for one large set but was told that they are wicked heavy and are too much for boat diving.
I started diving doubles for tec training a number of years back, and somehow ended up making an almost permanent switch. But, for those less common times when I use a single tank, a single 130 is a great tank. My inclination would be to keep them single. For two-tank NC coast dives, a couple of single 130s are really great. Having said that I have doubled sets of 130s, 120s, 100s, and 80s. I have used the 130s for boat dives in the St. Lawrence where there was current but otherwise quite stable surface conditions, and they weren't a problem. I have used each of the other sets off the NC coast, and they are all quite manageable even when the seas pick up a bit, although the ladder ascent with the 120s is slow and deliberate (and seems to be moreso with each passing year). As DA mentioned, double 100s are a really nice coastal set, balancing air supply and weight. Of the four sets of doubles, the 130s are certainly the heaviest, and the 'densest' - short, fat heavy tanks putting a lot of weight in one place - and are the ones that also seem to heavy enough to influence my trim - they seem to want to shift on my back, from side to side. Unless you want a doubles set for some deeper deco diving (e.g. >175'), where having a larger gas supply is required, I would be inclined not to double them up.
 
Thanks for the responses from everyone. I think I will continue to use my double lp85's and hold off on doubling up the 130's until I see a need for the 260 cuft of gas.

jt
 
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