Question Dive Rite O2ptima CM & Europe questions (Usage, as well as the wretched CE)

[makar0n]

Long story short - I have been looking for a real travel friendly rebreather (because 30kg unit is not something i am willing, or can, to lug around as have not won the lottery to fly business class everywhere), and almost decided on O2ptima CM. There is also Triton, but I would prefer an eCCR. But...I am based in Europe, and currently, according to DiveRite, "there are no plans to get the CM version CE certified".

So I am looking to hear from any European divers using O2ptima CM...provided such exist
Just to be clear, this is not a discussion about whether CE is, or, is not, sensible. Plenty of topics on that already.

So:
1) How did you get it over? I am thinking traveling to US then bringing it back personally, hoping to "skip" customs

2) How do you service it? Or you send it back to US or is it done in EU?

3) Where did you complete your training? US or Europe?

4) Other than France and Italy, did you find any issues diving with a non-CE certified rebreather anywhere? (i am specifically interested in Spain, Canary Islands, Malta, Greece, Cyprus, Norway, UK)

5) Did you find any issues with insurance when diving non-CE certified rebreather? I have emailed DAN Europe, for some clarification on their "any kind of diving", but still awaiting a reply. And CE regulation is a bit unclear to me, some say it only applies to any commercial use, some that it also applies to recereational one.
For example this document states recreational usage of non-CE rebreather is also illegal:

http://swiss-cave-diving.ch/PDF-dateien/CE-Mark_Rebreather.pdf

6) Do you use normal sorb or the ExtendAir cartridges? As these seem rather proprietary, expensive, and hard to find in Europe

7) Did you try to use it with a carbon tank, to lower weight even further?

8) Did you try to modify it to hCCR by adding needle valve or similar?

9) Any strong pros or cons of the CM unit (especially vs. Triton)

10) And finally, the most important question - why the heck these are called Choptima? It really bugs me


Thanks in advance for any replies

 

[Brad_Horn]

6) Do you use normal sorb or the ExtendAir cartridges? As these seem rather proprietary, expensive, and hard to find in Europe.

Thanks in advance for any replies

Open Safety are a European dealer and stockist of Micropore ExtendAir Cartridges and can support you with everything from an MOQ box (8) to a pallet (256) etc etc off the shelf. Open Safety Equipment ----<

No comment on the rest; though we can help you out with 2L 300BAR Carbon cylinders as well but that won't be cheap. It's what we use in our Incursion range of military chest mount CE certified rebreathers.

 

[JMBL]

You should be able to get the rebreather here in France. Some years ago, you could see some Optima among the cave divers community. Now I don't know, I haven't been cave diving for a while.

 

[Tracy]

Long story short - I have been looking for a real travel friendly rebreather (because 30kg unit is not something i am willing, or can, to lug around as have not won the lottery to fly business class everywhere), and almost decided on O2ptima CM. There is also Triton, but I would prefer an eCCR. But...I am based in Europe, and currently, according to DiveRite, "there are no plans to get the CM version CE certified".

So I am looking to hear from any European divers using O2ptima CM...provided such exist
Just to be clear, this is not a discussion about whether CE is, or, is not, sensible. Plenty of topics on that already.

So:
1) How did you get it over? I am thinking traveling to US then bringing it back personally, hoping to "skip" customs

2) How do you service it? Or you send it back to US or is it done in EU?

3) Where did you complete your training? US or Europe?

4) Other than France and Italy, did you find any issues diving with a non-CE certified rebreather anywhere? (i am specifically interested in Spain, Canary Islands, Malta, Greece, Cyprus, Norway, UK)

5) Did you find any issues with insurance when diving non-CE certified rebreather? I have emailed DAN Europe, for some clarification on their "any kind of diving", but still awaiting a reply. And CE regulation is a bit unclear to me, some say it only applies to any commercial use, some that it also applies to recereational one.
For example this document states recreational usage of non-CE rebreather is also illegal:

http://swiss-cave-diving.ch/PDF-dateien/CE-Mark_Rebreather.pdf

6) Do you use normal sorb or the ExtendAir cartridges? As these seem rather proprietary, expensive, and hard to find in Europe

7) Did you try to use it with a carbon tank, to lower weight even further?

8) Did you try to modify it to hCCR by adding needle valve or similar?

9) Any strong pros or cons of the CM unit (especially vs. Triton)

10) And finally, the most important question - why the heck these are called Choptima? It really bugs me


Thanks in advance for any replies

I can't help with any of the EU questions as I have no experience with them.
But is became the Choptima because people sounded it out. It was a CM Optima. Short for Chest Mount.

 

[cathal]

"5) Did you find any issues with insurance when diving non-CE certified rebreather? I have emailed DAN Europe, for some clarification on their "any kind of diving", but still awaiting a reply. And CE regulation is a bit unclear to me, some say it only applies to any commercial use, some that it also applies to recereational one.
For example this document states recreational usage of non-CE rebreather is also illegal:
http://swiss-cave-diving.ch/PDF-dateien/CE-Mark_Rebreather.pdf"

Might be no harm to have a discussion with your life insurance of whether diving a non-CE'd unit invalidates your policy. Could have serious consequences for your next of kin, but hopefully not!!

 

[Wibble]

My understanding with CE marking is it's illegal to sell it or use it commercially in the EU. It is not illegal to use it or purchase from an individual. Thus training cannot officially be done, although mentoring may be another issue.

You see quite a few non-CE marked rebreathers around. Many of the kiss units for example -- sidewinder.

If you're set on getting one, then look at having a nice holiday, say in the US and bring it back with you. Obviously there's questions about tax/VAT/BTW/TVA; be prepared to pay up the 21% in customs -- or maybe even volunteer to pay it? As it's not agricultural goods there's little or no protectionist tariff to pay to help the French farmers.


There would be no issues using it in the UK. Tend to take the attitude that it's your responsibility to look after yourself -- no scuba police, etc. It really is your responsibility to sort out adequate training and practice too.

 

[rddvet]

Go to the US Or Mexico to be trained on it. Bring your unit home with you. Nobody’s going to come check if it’s CE or not

 

[JonG1]

I dive a venerable kiss Classic which is not CE mainly in the UK, in addition most CE units are only CE in the factory configuration so many wouldn't be CE after a bit of fettling AFAIK.

The issue may be speedy access to spares not sure who would stock bits in Europe.

 

[makar0n]

Open Safety are a European dealer and stockist of Micropore ExtendAir Cartridges and can support you with everything from an MOQ box (8) to a pallet (256) etc etc off the shelf. Open Safety Equipment ----<

No comment on the rest; though we can help you out with 2L 300BAR Carbon cylinders as well but that won't be cheap. It's what we use in our Incursion range of military chest mount CE certified rebreathers.

Thanks. Good to know there is a dealer around, these cartridges do seem nice. As for carbon, idea for now, given how light the rebrather is already, but shaving another 1-2 kg could be nice. Just need to understand how will this affect the buoyancy/trim of the unit.

You should be able to get the rebreather here in France. Some years ago, you could see some Optima among the cave divers community. Now I don't know, I haven't been cave diving for a while.

Thank you. Ha this is interesting. They do offer whole Dive Rite range. And it is a French shop, with France being very strict on CE requirement...maybe have to pay extra for somebody flying to US and "importing" it. Interestingly, price says "on demand" but one can add it to the cart and checkout with price as 0.00...Free rebreather anybody ?

I can't help with any of the EU questions as I have no experience with them.
But is became the Choptima because people sounded it out. It was a CM Optima. Short for Chest Mount.

And thank you as well. Now it is clear indeed...thought i must say i was hoping for some kinda of a story, something with chopping

"5) Did you find any issues with insurance when diving non-CE certified rebreather? I have emailed DAN Europe, for some clarification on their "any kind of diving", but still awaiting a reply. And CE regulation is a bit unclear to me, some say it only applies to any commercial use, some that it also applies to recereational one.
For example this document states recreational usage of non-CE rebreather is also illegal:
http://swiss-cave-diving.ch/PDF-dateien/CE-Mark_Rebreather.pdf"

Might be no harm to have a discussion with your life insurance of whether diving a non-CE'd unit invalidates your policy. Could have serious consequences for your next of kin, but hopefully not!!

Thanks. Yeah that is my worry. Emailed DAN Europe, as i normally use them, but so far no reply. I would indeed (as boring as it sounds) prefer not to dive without having insurance, especially on a rebreather.

My understanding with CE marking is it's illegal to sell it or use it commercially in the EU. It is not illegal to use it or purchase from an individual. Thus training cannot officially be done, although mentoring may be another issue.

You see quite a few non-CE marked rebreathers around. Many of the kiss units for example -- sidewinder.

If you're set on getting one, then look at having a nice holiday, say in the US and bring it back with you. Obviously there's questions about tax/VAT/BTW/TVA; be prepared to pay up the 21% in customs -- or maybe even volunteer to pay it? As it's not agricultural goods there's little or no protectionist tariff to pay to help the French farmers.


There would be no issues using it in the UK. Tend to take the attitude that it's your responsibility to look after yourself -- no scuba police, etc. It really is your responsibility to sort out adequate training and practice too.

Thank you. Well that is the one that i am unsure of. Seems a lot of folks say commercially only indeed but that one document worries me ie. http://swiss-cave-diving.ch/PDF-dateien/CE-Mark_Rebreather.pdf
But then no clue if that one is correct. Reading through the whole EN14143-2003 directive now...

http://www.swiss-cave-diving.ch/PDF-dateien/PSA/Norm_EN14143-2003.pdf

Training wise, would that mean no training in EU completely? As was under the impression that maybe this only means that instructor cannot dive the CM, during training, but does not stop the trainee...Either way, interestingly there seems to be one trainer in Germany that is listed on Dive Rite website as certified on CM version as well.

Yeah, flight was my idea, as shipping would be too problematic i suppose...missus wanted to visit US anyways so could "accidentally" pickup a rebrather on the way back. Customs will depend on the country, as that one thing that is not really unified in EU. But in Germany normally they are the easiest I've experienced so far. That is if i won't "skip" that part

And good to know about UK. At least one more non-CE friendly country, so can one day hit Cornwall or Scapa Flow. Well that is if the insurance thing is sorted...

Go to the US Or Mexico to be trained on it. Bring your unit home with you. Nobody’s going to come check if it’s CE or not

Well that is more or less the plan so far (though will email that French shop quoted by JMBL out of the curiosity). But all will depend If it will turn out that recreational non-commercial usage is fine and the darn insurance covers it.

I dive a venerable kiss Classic which is not CE mainly in the UK, in addition most CE units are only CE in the factory configuration so many wouldn't be CE after a bit of fettling AFAIK.

The issue may be speedy access to spares not sure who would stock bits in Europe.

Interesting. And did you ever had any issues with the insurance? How did you service it, locally in Europe or had to send to US ?

 

[JonG1]

The KISS is pretty much self serviceable, 1st stages can be done at LDS.

Narked at 90 have spares in uk too, so it's not too bad from that pov.

Not sure about insurance tbh tho.