DIR Curious question-swivels.

[Couv]

DIR Curious question-swivels.

From some of the post I have read in this section, I take it that swivels are not necessarily counter to DIR philosophy, but some of you would rather not have them. So this question is for those of you who have eliminated some or all of the swivels from their regulators.

First, the 1st stage. Do you just buy a model that does not have a turret or is there a replacement part/cap to eliminate it. I know the SP MK 10 had a cousin, the MK 9 that had a cap rather than a swivel, but I have never seen one.

Second, the 2nd stage. The fitting where the hose connects to the second stage housing is a swivel on most if not all standard regulators. Does the 7 or 5 foot hose have a swivel or are there custom hoses that have just a straight connection or some type of union in that application?

A little off the subject, but I have a fitting (not a swivel) that allows me to join two low pressure hoses together to make one longer one. Would this be an acceptable practice?

Thank you,

couv

 

[Vie]

DIR Curious question-swivels.

From some of the post I have read in this section, I take it that swivels are not necessarily counter to DIR philosophy, but some of you would rather not have them. So this question is for those of you who have eliminated some or all of the swivels from their regulators.

First, the 1st stage. Do you just buy a model that does not have a turret or is there a replacement part/cap to eliminate it. I know the SP MK 10 had a cousin, the MK 9 that had a cap rather than a swivel, but I have never seen one.

After trying a pair of Scubapro MK25s (with turret) and a pair of Apeks FSTs (no turret) for backgas, I really preferred the hose routing of the FSTs and bought a pair - this is strictly personal preference.

Nothing wrong with a first stage with turret - some people actually prefer them for stage/deco (and a pair of first stages with turrets is probably essential for the RB80 to get the hose routing just right). The turret is not necessary or needed for backgas (OC) however, so in that situation the turret could be considered an extra "failure point" but really there's no reason not to use them; many divers love the hose routing of MK20/25/Atomic Aquatic first stages. Some may avoid them for personal preferences.

Some first stage with turret, such as those from Scubapro (MK20/25, MK18/19 etc.), Atomic Aquatics and Oceanic (PX-3), has an LP port right at the end of the turret which offers some great hose routing possibility when used as backgas regs. A first stage with turret that lacks an LP port at the end (Apeks DST, for example) is pretty pointless (hose routing wise) when used for backgas.

Second, the 2nd stage. The fitting where the hose connects to the second stage housing is a swivel on most if not all standard regulators. Does the 7 or 5 foot hose have a swivel or are there custom hoses that have just a straight connection or some type of union in that application?

Oceanic makes a 7' hose with swivel fitting for use with the Delta IV second stage. To be honest a swivel is completely unnecessary when using a 5' or 7' hose (and Oceanic also offers a non-swivel option for the Delta IV). I think the recent discussion about second stage swivel involves the use of a 40" hose on the primary second stage for open water single tank diving... I have no experience with this particular application of the second stage swivel as I use a 7' hose for diving singles and doubles.

A little off the subject, but I have a fitting (not a swivel) that allows me to join two low pressure hoses together to make one longer one. Would this be an acceptable practice?

Seems like a very convoluted way to solve a simple problem - why not just use a longer LP hose?

 

[RTodd]

DIR Curious question-swivels.

From some of the post I have read in this section, I take it that swivels are not necessarily counter to DIR philosophy, but some of you would rather not have them. So this question is for those of you who have eliminated some or all of the swivels from their regulators.

First, the 1st stage. Do you just buy a model that does not have a turret or is there a replacement part/cap to eliminate it. I know the SP MK 10 had a cousin, the MK 9 that had a cap rather than a swivel, but I have never seen one.

Second, the 2nd stage. The fitting where the hose connects to the second stage housing is a swivel on most if not all standard regulators. Does the 7 or 5 foot hose have a swivel or are there custom hoses that have just a straight connection or some type of union in that application?

A little off the subject, but I have a fitting (not a swivel) that allows me to join two low pressure hoses together to make one longer one. Would this be an acceptable practice?

Thank you,

couv

Standard fittings that swivel 360 degrees on the end of the hose still has one o-ring and are not the problem. The problem are the swivels that allow the second stage to be moved at different angles. This adds extra o-rings and failure points and isn't necessary for any application. Swivels on back gas first stages arguably aren't ideal but are fine. For stages, a swivel on the first stage is fine. Being a nickel rocket and adding an additional failure point to join two hoses together is not an acceptable DIR practice.

 

[rjack321]

The swivel that is considered unnecessary look like these:
http://www.underwatertimes.com/news.php?article_id=64110285370

They have extra orings and are held together by a bolt.

The swivels on the ends of LP hoses are necessary for 2nd stages to get into your mouth properly. 1st stage turrets are more of a personal preference thing. For whatever reason they rarely fail (unlike the swivels under recall above)

 

[Sloth]

I could see a 360 swivel on a primary reg requiring some modification to how you do the S-drill.

Any equipment evaluation should include the following questions. Does it solve a problem? Does it introduce new potential failures? Does it require modification to GUEs standards?

 

[Jason B]

I could see a 360 swivel on a primary reg requiring some modification to how you do the S-drill.

Hey Sloth, I see you are no longer in SC.

I do believe that all primary regs have a 360 swivel don't they?

 

[John_B]

I'm not going to claim I'm qualified to give "The DIR Answer" but I'll share my own "thinking DIR diver" learning experience on the subject, and you can decide for yourself.

Put all the arguments about failure points, 360° vs. 90°, etc. aside for a moment and think about doing an s-drill.

With the long hose, the primary is donated by grasping the long hose near where it meets the second stage using your right hand (with your palm facing you), extending your hand (with your palm facing away from you) which naturally frees the hose length from behind your neck as you go to your backup reg, and if its the 7 footer adjusting the extra slack (can light, knife sheath, tucked into your harness, whatever) and handing off the rest of the hose in a loop. Simple. The diver you are donating to has the mouthpiece facing them and has free access to the purge valve, the hose, etc. The internal up/down swivel in the second stage (Jason is right, all regs I've ever seen have these) may have the mouthpiece oriented slightly up or down but this is no big deal. Its all good.

Now lets say put your primary on a 40" hose with a good quality (i.e. non-Trident) 90° elbow swivel. The hose for your primary is now essentially vertical (in relation to your body) instead of horizontal. You grab the hose with your right hand (palm facing you, you extend your hand (palm now facing away from you) and you hand them what, the backside of the reg? And the mouthpiece, who knows, it could be facing any direction. If you hand them the reg itself, you are probably blocking the purge cover which is no good. So the extra swivel in the 90° elbow that made the 40" comfortable as your primary now works against your team member. What about the rest of the 40" hose? You'll have to fish it out from under your right arm by pulling back on the hose or doing a little underwater dance. And you still don't have enough room to comfortably swim side-by-side back to where it is you need to be (upline, shore, whatever)... At least a DIR buddy would be used to OOG drills, but what about some other OW diver? Still better than an octo IMO, but by how much?

Standard fittings that swivel 360 degrees on the end of the hose still has one o-ring and are not the problem. The problem are the swivels that allow the second stage to be moved at different angles. This adds extra o-rings and failure points and isn't necessary for any application.

Just as a technical discussion, the 360° swivel from Trident (with the little flathead screw holding it all together) is probably the worst of the worst, they were recalled for a good reason. Atomic and now Apeks make more reliable versions that swivel around a smallish axis, but probably the 90° swivel elbows like Zeagle and KM make are the most reliable version b/c the axis is around the connector barrel which is a naturally strong design.

Again, just my 2 bar, from someone who's tried pretty much all of them out there. Its probably the easiest path to the bungeed backup, which makes it appealing on the surface (literally and figurative). It took me a long time to come to this conclusion for myself, that I was only solving my problem instead of my team's problem.

I'm with Vie, get a 5' or better yet a 7' and learn how to do s-drills. And practice!

John

 

[Sloth]

Hey Sloth, I see you are no longer in SC.

I do believe that all primary regs have a 360 swivel don't they?

Yeah, Hawaii called and offered me a job, couldnt resist I do miss the NC wrecks, I dont miss the two to three hour boat ride to the wrecks! 20 mins to a decent wreck at 110ft with, at worst, 60ft of vis is a nice trade off.

I was refering to the omni-directional swivel thingies, sorry for the confusion.

I was aluding to what JohnB just outlined above.

 

[RTodd]

I'm not going to claim I'm qualified to give "The DIR Answer" but I'll share my own "thinking DIR diver" learning experience on the subject, and you can decide for yourself.

Put all the arguments about failure points, 360° vs. 90°, etc. aside for a moment and think about doing an s-drill.

With the long hose, the primary is donated by grasping the long hose near where it meets the second stage using your right hand (with your palm facing you), extending your hand (with your palm facing away from you) which naturally frees the hose length from behind your neck as you go to your backup reg, and if its the 7 footer adjusting the extra slack (can light, knife sheath, tucked into your harness, whatever) and handing off the rest of the hose in a loop. Simple. The diver you are donating to has the mouthpiece facing them and has free access to the purge valve, the hose, etc. The internal up/down swivel in the second stage (Jason is right, all regs I've ever seen have these) may have the mouthpiece oriented slightly up or down but this is no big deal. Its all good.

Now lets say put your primary on a 40" hose with a good quality (i.e. non-Trident) 90° elbow swivel. The hose for your primary is now essentially vertical (in relation to your body) instead of horizontal. You grab the hose with your right hand (palm facing you, you extend your hand (palm now facing away from you) and you hand them what, the backside of the reg? And the mouthpiece, who knows, it could be facing any direction. If you hand them the reg itself, you are probably blocking the purge cover which is no good. So the extra swivel in the 90° elbow that made the 40" comfortable as your primary now works against your team member. What about the rest of the 40" hose? You'll have to fish it out from under your right arm by pulling back on the hose or doing a little underwater dance. And you still don't have enough room to comfortably swim side-by-side back to where it is you need to be (upline, shore, whatever)... At least a DIR buddy would be used to OOG drills, but what about some other OW diver? Still better than an octo IMO, but by how much?



Just as a technical discussion, the 360° swivel from Trident (with the little flathead screw holding it all together) is probably the worst of the worst, they were recalled for a good reason. Atomic and now Apeks make more reliable versions that swivel around a smallish axis, but probably the 90° swivel elbows like Zeagle and KM make are the most reliable version b/c the axis is around the connector barrel which is a naturally strong design.

Again, just my 2 bar, from someone who's tried pretty much all of them out there. Its probably the easiest path to the bungeed backup, which makes it appealing on the surface (literally and figurative). It took me a long time to come to this conclusion for myself, that I was only solving my problem instead of my team's problem.

I'm with Vie, get a 5' or better yet a 7' and learn how to do s-drills. And practice!

John

Did you recently compete in a beauty pagent? Standard fittings and non moving elbows are okay. An elbow is about the only way to cleanly use a 40" hose as an open water first stage and does not make donation any tougher. Elbow fittings with a swivel type ball joint = bad.

 

[do it easy]

Did you recently compete in a beauty pagent? Standard fittings and non moving elbows are okay. An elbow is about the only way to cleanly use a 40" hose as an open water first stage and does not make donation any tougher. Elbow fittings with a swivel type ball joint = bad.

Forgive the question, but how do you route the 40" hose with the ridgid elbow? I would guess down in front of the right shoulder and back up?