Dangerous dive or unprepared divers?

[Cliff]

In the "ask an instructor" section above, there is a discussion of a dive report that poses the question, was it a dangerous dive or just unprepared divers? I suggest it is interesting reading for anyone going on a dive vacation. The prevailing opinion seems to be the divers should not have done the dive, they were unprepared. I suggest, they were not familiar with this particular location and had to rely on the resident "expert", the dive master. On the first dive, if the DM knew there was strong current, he should have known that if anyone got separated they had no chance of rejoining the group. A down line so at least everyone arrived at the bottom together would seem in order. If the DM does not know what the current is like, let him find out before taking tourists into the water. On the second dive, they should have stayed with the DM assigned. I've got a hunch the real problem is these dive operations are far more concerned with taking money than with accepting responsability for conducting a safe dive. You can talk all you want about divers having to accept final responsability for their physical condition, training, experience, etc - but the fact remains if you are a dive professional, you can not simply pass that responsability to a diver. How is this so different from losing a student in the pool during training?

Any thoughts?

 

[MASS-Diver]

In the "ask an instructor" section above, there is a discussion of a dive report that poses the question, was it a dangerous dive or just unprepared divers? I suggest it is interesting reading for anyone going on a dive vacation. The prevailing opinion seems to be the divers should not have done the dive, they were unprepared. I suggest, they were not familiar with this particular location and had to rely on the resident "expert", the dive master. On the first dive, if the DM knew there was strong current, he should have known that if anyone got separated they had no chance of rejoining the group. A down line so at least everyone arrived at the bottom together would seem in order. If the DM does not know what the current is like, let him find out before taking tourists into the water. On the second dive, they should have stayed with the DM assigned. I've got a hunch the real problem is these dive operations are far more concerned with taking money than with accepting responsability for conducting a safe dive. You can talk all you want about divers having to accept final responsability for their physical condition, training, experience, etc - but the fact remains if you are a dive professional, you can not simply pass that responsability to a diver. How is this so different from losing a student in the pool during training?

Any thoughts?

For the "students" perspective, while ideally every instructor/guide should always take full responsiblity for all their students/customers - do I really want to bet my life on that? I don't do trust me dives. That said, I think alot of these warm guides have a pretty tough dive deal with people that only dive a few times a year and never practice or do training dives - it's a miracle more people aren't dead. All my friends that are vacation divers, have all kinds of goof-ball stories about guides taking new diver deep at night, through swim through etc. No offense to any DMs out there, but most of the rec diver DMs I know certainly aren't experts that I would want to reley on to save my life, even in warm, clear, shallow water.

 

[kevink]

I don't think the student/instructor parallel is appropriate. As an instructor I would be responsible for your safety, period. That's not s trust-me dive, but rather, you promise to follow your all of your training and I make sure to handle anything over and above that.

It's a recurring theme on this board "I dive cold water, so I am xx% better than a comparable blue water diver". I regularly dive anywhere from dry to a just a 1/2mil suit. Darwin alloted a fair number of professional knuckleheads in all of this planets oceans, I think they just get weeded out quicker in colder water.

It's a tough gig as a guide on a recreational boat doing drift dives. There needs to be a smooth cooperation between the guide and captain. Imagine heading out to dive and being responsible for 8 or more new people every day. Granted, every buddy team on that boat should be responsible for their safety, but you never know the last time they were in the water, or how they will react to various situations. You can't be everywhere all of the time, but you need to pay close attention to people before they hit the water, and at every point in the dive.

In a drift dive you are not going to have a down line, unless it is a gentle drift. So on the whole this is more advanced diving.

Don't ever count on a DM checking your air supply during a dive. Didn't someone cover that in your OW class? It's not like an ICU where there is a monitor relaying everyone's vitals on a head's up display to the guide.

If you are setting up to drift dive a wreck, then the wreck is just one attraction on that dive. Unless you can duck for cover behind, or inside of it, you won't be spending too much time on it. You will get a quick look as you drift by.

I have been on drift dives where without using a line we missed the wreck. People could have been slow entering, or the captain misjudged the current/wreck equation. But in that instance you may see the top of it while you are descending, but to swim upcurrent to get back to it is not all that bright. You will have a lot more fun free-flowing your octopus than swimming against a strong current. Your dive will last the same length either way.

The guide should always poke a head in the water to assess the current, but to expect the guide to go to the bottom and bounce back to the top to physically assess bottom currents is asking too much. Normally you can look at fish and topography to get a feel for the strength of the current.

At the end of the day, it is on the diver. If they are running low on air, or are uncomfortable with the dive, head back up to the surface as a buddy team.

 

[MASS-Diver]

I don't think the student/instructor parallel is appropriate. As an instructor I would be responsible for your safety, period. That's not s trust-me dive, but rather, you promise to follow your all of your training and I make sure to handle anything over and above that.

It's a recurring theme on this board "I dive cold water, so I am xx% better than a comparable blue water diver". I regularly dive anywhere from dry to a just a 1/2mil suit. Darwin alloted a fair number of professional knuckleheads in all of this planets oceans, I think they just get weeded out quicker in colder water.

While they should not be, dives in a student/instructor situation can be trust me dives as well - espically on check out dives. I've been in that situation.

Some of the best divers in the world are warm water divers, my comments (in this thread and others) are about vacation divers - there's a big difference. Yes, if you dive 8 times a year on your annual trip to the Caymans, you can expect divers that work their butts off training and practicing to look down their nose at you and to point out the flaws in your gear, training, etc.

 

[BigboyDan]

Some of the best divers in the world are warm water divers..."

You got that right.

 

[Squalus]

You got that right.

I would disagree with you on that. IMHO

 

[scubapro50]

" There are old divers and there are bold divers .... but very few old/bold divers." In 30 plus years of diving I would say 99% of the accidents I have seen were do to unprepared divers. Many times this took the form of a diver trying to push his limits by not knowing what his limits were to begin with.

 

[kevink]

" There are old divers and there are bold divers .... but very few old/bold divers." In 30 plus years of diving I would say 99% of the accidents I have seen were do to unprepared divers. Many times this took the form of a diver trying to push his limits by not knowing what his limits were to begin with.

I have to appreciate the 'Why Diver's Die Section of Undercurrent every year. About half of the narratives start off - -

Morbidly obese 50+ year old diver, fewer than 20 logged dives, last dive 5 years ago, history of heart complications, attempted rough water entry ...... (fill in the rest).

Not to be cruel, but the giant Darwin magnet on the ocean floor tends to attract the fat and the stupid.

 

[Cliff]

Consider these guys making their living at highly touted vacation spots that exist on the tourist trade - what should you expect from a DM in those situations? At least to know and communicate dive conditions!

In the report this thread is based on, the two divers leave no doubt they do not feel they were properly briefed. Compare this to a guided mountain expedition; the climbers all have to have proper gear, training and conditioning, but they depend on the guide for the route, to decide when conditions are OK, and a bunch of other stuff. Why is a dive vacation so different? Consider a comment from one instructor: What can we do? Teach good diving skills and stress that if you’re dumb enough to stick you head under water and breath, you’ve got no one but yourself to blame if it doesn’t work out. Is this a professional dive guide?

Another DM familiar with this particular site made the following comment: The current is strong on this wreck on a good day and was exceptionally strong on this day, I know this site well and even fit, experienced divers can use 1000 psi (80 cf alum) going down the down line which is why the unanchored boat drops the divers 100 yards/meters upstream to drift onto the wreck. The harbour master probably should have closed the port that day, but instead washed his hands and issued a "proceed with extreem caution" warning. The companies policy is "if it is open, the boat goes out with any client that wants to pay".

I suggest the dive industry needs to examine what can tourists, who may only get to dive a couple times a year, expect from a DM. Where is the meeting place between professionaly running a safe dive and divers personal responsability? I suggest it is not found in "you pays you money and you takes you chances".

 

[lamont]

I strongly believe there's blame all the way around in this case.

I would only start with blaming the divers for not taking responsibility for not diving over their own experience and training. The dive operation is also at fault because they didn't even do the most precursory check to see if the divers were up to the dive, and didn't try at all to select a site which was accomodating to the skill levels of the divers they were taking out. Also, the training agencies and the instructors share a bit of blame, too, for not preparing these divers with any skills to assess the difficulty of the dive before getting into the water, and to take responsiblity for themselves.

And while I find fault with the dive op, I don't think anyone should be legally culpable in this instance, but I certainly wouldn't want to dive with that dive operation.