Choosing a point and shoot camera and housing for underwater video.

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janosik

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Location
New York
# of dives
50 - 99
Can anyone please offer any recommendations for specific models, as well as which features have the biggest practical impact on video quality? I am currently considering Canon SD4500, Canon S95, and Sony DSC-HX9V. Each of these seems to have certain unique advantages. I am not really sure what is the relative importance of these features. I should stress that by far, video recording is what I care about the most, but I am not considering a full-sized camcorder, since portability is also an important factor.

1) Max video resolution. SD4500 and HX9V offer 1080p video, whereas S95 only goes up to 720p. However, each of them has about the same 10MP of effective pixels. Is there any real benefit from packing those 10M pixels in a 1080p video format? It seems that a 1080p video has about 2M pixels on the screen. I understand that for each of these, the camera needs at least four actual pixels on the sensor (red one, blue one, and 2x green), which brings it close to the effective pixel of each of these models. Then, there is a noise factor, and the fact that compression loses some quality. Recording in 1080p does seem to result in more bits written out to the memory card, though, which cannot be a bad thing. But does it matter in the end?

2) Sensor size and type. S95 has a larger 1/1.7'' CCD sensor, whereas the other two models have smaller 1/2.3'' CMOS sensors. Some sources claim that CCD is superior as it does not waste precious space on silicon for transistors and captures more light. The specific CCD in question is also bigger, covering 50% more area. Other sources state that CMOS is a newer technology that offers better picture quality. Which is better? And how does this relate to the maximum video resolution? Better to record from 50% larger CCD sensor, but fit it into video format that saves 50% fewer bits on the memory card or record from a smaller CMOS sensor that saves more data and presumably suffers less of a quality loss from video compression?

3) Frames per second. HX9V can shoot 1080p at 60fps, the other two can shoot at 24fps at their highest resolution. I presume a human eye cannot tell the difference in terms of a video playback smoothness, but 60fps does sound like 2.5x more information. Will it result in video less noisy? Does it have a similar impact on image quality as sensor size/type or resolution?

4) Aperture. S95 has a very bright f/2.0 lens; the others start at f/3.3 and f/3.4 at their widest angle setting, which is presumably where all underwater video shooting will take place. More light presumably means less noise in the video? How does that play with other factors I have mentioned earlier?

5) Wide angle. HX9V starts at 24mm, S95 at 28mm, SD4500 at 36mm. What is a reasonable minimum underwater, does extra wide angle make enough difference in practice in terms of composition and other aesthetic factors to sacrifice a little bit of image quality? Better to have a slightly wider angle or a brighter lens? Does the answer change if I assume I do (or do not) want to use an external video light?

6) Autofocus. I was not able to find any comparison of how well these cameras can focus in low-light conditions underwater. Presumably, in most underwater situations the scene is not changing too rapidly. Anyone owns these and experienced problems? I actually used to own SD4500. I lost it in an accident before I had a chance to assess picture quality underwater. When shooting 1080p videos on the surface, it seemed to sometimes get a little out of focus when panning or rotating, but would regain it in a second or two. Is that a common issue?

7) Is there anything else that matters for getting good quality underwater video? All cameras listed above seem to have some sort of image stabilization, and claim support for shooting in low-light conditions.
 
My big question is why would you want to go this route. Why not just get a video camera and video housing that can take stills on a separate card. None of the P&S systems can match the versatility of a video camera if video is your primary objective. That being said, a lot depends on what you want to shoot. You will most likely need lights so the maximum aperture of the lens is moot mostly. As for autofocus, my impression is that the Sony will win. One way to think about it is that the Sony is really a camcorder optical system in a P&S case. So for me, if I were doing video only, I would get a real camcorder (CX550 or something like that) and a Bluefin housing, but if I was going down the P&S route, I would get the Sony.

Bill
 
Thank you for the prompt response. Could you please clarify what you meant by saying that the Sony is a camcorder in a P&S body, why the same cannot be said about the other two?

As for my rationale behind the P&S, I feel that at least at my experience level (20 dives), a bulky camera is a recipe for disaster. I own a SD1000 in a much smaller WP-DC10 housing and have used it on almost all my dives so far, including my first dive to 100 feet. It gave me no added stress, and I did not feel task loaded at all. Some 15 dives later, I got a SD4500 in a bulkier Ikelite housing, and this already felt burdensome. No way to stash it anywhere, and harder to hold in one hand. I suspect that with a camcorder, I will need both hands, and it will be even harder to get around. How hard is it to use a reel or hold on to the ascent line while holding a camcorder? Is it practical to use a regular light, or do I have to sheel out extra ~$500 for a dedicated video light? Will it be like buying the largest SMB out there, will I end up leaving the camcorder on the boat until I have at least 200 dives under my belt?

On a related note, how does it affect the overall diving experience? I actually own an SLR and DSLR, and while I have enjoyed picture quality, a few years back I gave up carrying them on my trips. Between occasional back pain from dragging a camera bag with several lenses all day round, and the pain in the butt carrying either of these in my carry-on luggage, most memorable pictures tensed to be taken with a P&S that I can stash in my pocket and hardly notice.

Another factor is that I do not expect to do enough diving to justify the very high initial expense. It seems that between a camcorder, the case and the video light, I am looking at somewhere in the $1500-2000 range. Just like with a drysuit, I think it would be easier to stomach some 100 dives later, once I know I want to really continue with it and an passionate about it. In case of a camera, I am only investing the price of a housing ($200), since I can use the camera at the surface. I am assuming that I can still record decent videos by learning to use my regular dive light as a video light. Is that a reasonable assumption?
 
On a related note, how does it affect the overall diving experience? I actually own an SLR and DSLR, and while I have enjoyed picture quality, a few years back I gave up carrying them on my trips. Between occasional back pain from dragging a camera bag with several lenses all day round, and the pain in the butt carrying either of these in my carry-on luggage, most memorable pictures tensed to be taken with a P&S that I can stash in my pocket and hardly notice.

If you found it a pain on land, you'll find it double the pain on a small boat where space is at a premium. You'll be trying to change batteries, lube o-rings, and swap lenses on a rocking boat while other divers fall over you, then there's the ever present risk of flooding and the burden of rinsing afterwards.

I think 24fps is too slow, on the other hand a lot of editing tools cannot handle 60fps. You can get 720 @ 60fps with the pocket video like Kodak Zi8 or JVC Picsio. You can buy the complete kit (cam,housing,light) new for $600 or used for $300.
 
I get your points very clearly. My point is that Canon is a camera company that makes camcorders, while Sony is really a video camera company that make cameras (and other stuff as well). With only 20 dives, I think the P&S is a good choice but given the level of technical questions you are asking, I think you might be disappointed in the quality of the video that you get out of the P&S. As for stashing the camera, I don't really think that is a problem, I clip my much larger DSLR system to my BC if there is something that I need to do with 2 hands. As for lights, you will need them and you will indeed need to spend $500 for one but that is independent of the camera and housing system. Have you looked at the Go-Pro? Tiny, cheap and lots of fun. In any case, of the three that you looked at, I would vote for the Sony but AFAIK, there isn't a housing for that camera yet, maybe Ike has one but it will be more than $200.

Bill
 
Thank you for the prompt response. Could you please clarify what you meant by saying that the Sony is a camcorder in a P&S body, why the same cannot be said about the other two?

As for my rationale behind the P&S, I feel that at least at my experience level (20 dives), a bulky camera is a recipe for disaster.
At your experience level, it's not the camera that will task load you, or make a recipe for disaster.You currently ARE a recipe for disaster!

It is your inexperience when...

  • Dealing with unforeseen issues that arise underwater.
  • The fact that you cannot predict what your buddy will do at this time that might over task you in an emergency.
  • Your inexperience with, and your knowledge of your own gear at this point.
  • Plus about 200 other issues that makes a recipe for disaster without ever having a camera on a dive.

I BEG you to go to your original instructor, tell him you don't feel task loaded, and what you are planning, and ask about any issues they see with you and a camera underwater for dive #21.

At this point, if I were paired with you as an inst-buddy on board a boat, I would rather dive solo than have to take liability for you with a camera in your hands. I would approach the dive master on the boat and tell them you were their liability, not mine and I would refuse to dive with you.

Is my refusal to dive with you because I am afraid to dive with you or condescending enough to refuse to dive with a new diver? No. My refusal is because you are an unsafe diver who vastly over estimates their own skill level after 20 dives.

Please understand... I do not write this to be a pr*ck. I write this (as a past scuba instructor) who truly wants to see you succeed as a diver and live to tell your story.
 
Thanks again for the quick reply.

@ReefHound

I am also worried about 24fps being a bit on the low side. This being said, there appears to be a community that claims that 24fps is superior to 30/60fps because it has a more natural dreamy feel, whatever that means. I am not sure what to make out of that. From my limited experience with my SD4500 before the current took it away, panning a 1080p video @ 24fps seemed a bit jumpy, but I am not sure if this is because of the 24fps, or because the camera or memory card was not actually recording at 24fps. I did seem to see some of the same effect on youtube video samples. I did not seem to notice the same with a couple of SD95 youtube recordings that I saw, nominally 720p @ 24fps. Would you mind elaborating on the 24p vs. 60p issue, or can you offer some good pointers?

I looked at Kodak Zi8 or JVC Picsio, I think those are not rated down to 130 feet, and I am a bit suspicious about 1080p video on a 5MP camera, they do not seem to have enough pixels on the sensor to generate 1080p worth of data, but maybe my math is wrong.

@bvanant

You are right, I somehow overlooked the fact that the housing for HX9V has not come out yet. There is one for HX7V, which only does 1080 interlaced. I wonder how that would compare to yet another model, Canon SX230 HS which sort of lies between the other two Canons, with a 28mm lens, 3.1 aperture, and a 1080p@24fps. Would you vote for a camera that does 1080i @ 60fps, or one that does 1080p @ 24fps, everything else being more or less the same? I do not mind postprocessing a recording on a computer afterwards, I wonder what might be overall a better raw material to work with.

I looked at Go-Pro, and I have the same concern as for Kodak Zi8 and JVC Picsio, in that a 5MP sensor does not seem to be quite enough to generate a genuine 1080p video. I may be wrong, but I suspect this is some sort of marketing gimmick (?).

@CoolTech

While sadly, I cannot have you as my buddy, maybe I can benefit from your experience. For example, how can I attach a camera to my BC so that I can safely let it go when the need arises? Is it better attached to top or bottom rings? Are retractors a good idea? Any piece of equipment to watch for that tends to get tangled up or get in the way? I can hypothesize what is best, but I would be interested to know what others learned from their experience.
 
Thanks again for the quick reply.

@ReefHound

I am also worried about 24fps being a bit on the low side. This being said, there appears to be a community that claims that 24fps is superior to 30/60fps because it has a more natural dreamy feel, whatever that means. I am not sure what to make out of that. From my limited experience with my SD4500 before the current took it away, panning a 1080p video @ 24fps seemed a bit jumpy, but I am not sure if this is because of the 24fps, or because the camera or memory card was not actually recording at 24fps. I did seem to see some of the same effect on youtube video samples. I did not seem to notice the same with a couple of SD95 youtube recordings that I saw, nominally 720p @ 24fps. Would you mind elaborating on the 24p vs. 60p issue, or can you offer some good pointers?

I looked at Kodak Zi8 or JVC Picsio, I think those are not rated down to 130 feet, and I am a bit suspicious about 1080p video on a 5MP camera, they do not seem to have enough pixels on the sensor to generate 1080p worth of data, but maybe my math is wrong.

@bvanant

You are right, I somehow overlooked the fact that the housing for HX9V has not come out yet. There is one for HX7V, which only does 1080 interlaced. I wonder how that would compare to yet another model, Canon SX230 HS which sort of lies between the other two Canons, with a 28mm lens, 3.1 aperture, and a 1080p@24fps. Would you vote for a camera that does 1080i @ 60fps, or one that does 1080p @ 24fps, everything else being more or less the same? I do not mind postprocessing a recording on a computer afterwards, I wonder what might be overall a better raw material to work with.

I looked at Go-Pro, and I have the same concern as for Kodak Zi8 and JVC Picsio, in that a 5MP sensor does not seem to be quite enough to generate a genuine 1080p video. I may be wrong, but I suspect this is some sort of marketing gimmick (?).

@CoolTech

While sadly, I cannot have you as my buddy, maybe I can benefit from your experience. For example, how can I attach a camera to my BC so that I can safely let it go when the need arises? Is it better attached to top or bottom rings? Are retractors a good idea? Any piece of equipment to watch for that tends to get tangled up or get in the way? I can hypothesize what is best, but I would be interested to know what others learned from their experience.

Since you plan not to follow my original advice, I bid you safe diving and remember: Not everyone is offering you stupid advice when they offer experience where you have very limited experience, but don't agree with the advice. Some are attempting to help you make informed decisions and save your life...
 
The Ikelite housings for Zi8 and Picsio are tested to 200'.
 
how can I attach a camera to my BC so that I can safely let it go when the need arises? Is it better attached to top or bottom rings? Are retractors a good idea? Any piece of equipment to watch for that tends to get tangled up or get in the way? I can hypothesize what is best, but I would be interested to know what others learned from their experience.
CRLO3 discounts on sale Cetecea

crlo3.jpg

I've used it on more dives than I can count (small A650 w/ Canon housing), and it's perfect. Stays clipped to keep it tight when you're not using it, and unclips to give you coiled access, but remains tethered to your BC, if you need to drop it...

Dive safe, (and heed Cooltech's advice...)
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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