Brothers liveaboard with my experience? 28 dives AOW

[Bjornas]

Hi, sorry for yet another 'newbie thread' but I've done lots of searching already and couldn't really find an answer for my case.

Anyhow, I'm a 24 year old male thinking about taking a Liveaboard in the red sea next year, and have a few questions regarding (my) experience and difficulty.

After some googling and reading on this forum I've come to the conclusion that the Brothers/Daedalus/Elphinstone route would be my dream liveaboard. I'm all in for the big stuff and not much at all for wrecks, or corals even. The problem is that it looks like I lack experience for the trip, it seems that you need 50 dives (or AOW?) to be able to go and I'm only halfway.

My diving experience is AOW certificate and 28 dives, all of these were done in Thailand but I will probably be able to push it up to 30 by the time I go, although diving in the north of Sweden isn't something I'm really excited about haha. However I did a 3d/2n Liveaboard to the Surin Islands (Koh Bon, Koh Tachai, Richelieu Rock) which is way out in the Andaman sea, so I have experience of both currents and liveaboards (this was done with only 9 previous dives btw, half of which were DSD dives). I'm very cautious in the water, so much that I sometimes forgot to enjoy myself at Richelieu Rock . Not cautious like being frightened, but more like always/consistently keeping an eye on the walls and staying close to the diveguide (which I would DEFINATELY do if I went to the red sea). Ofcourse you only have my word on this and it probably doesn't matter anyway if I don't have the required amount of dives, but just to get a heads up on the kind of diver/person I am.

The question, I guess, is would I theoretically be able to handle the Brothers trip with my experience? Has anyone been to the Surin Islands and can compare the difficulty there to the Brothers trip? Is the 50 dives requirement strictly followed or do you sometimes go by a case-by-case policy with the customers?

Another question, how much money (in euros) do you think I'd need to save up for the whole trip? I would have to rent all of my gear, and then there's the tip and the odd beer etc. I'm a poor student so I need to start saving now

Cheers,
/Bjorn from Swedenland

 

[String]

The brothers you can expect rough seas, vertical drops to many thousands of metres, very strong currents including downcurrents.

You do need to be comfortable in those sorts of conditions and be familiar with things such as delayed SMB use, small and large boat procedures in rough water and so on. Its relatively challenging.

 

[Agility]

I think you would enjoy shore dives or trips on a day boat in Egypt more to fine tune your buoancy and trim.
Fighting current and bouancy at the same time distracts from the beautiful corals and fish.
The 50 dive recommendation does have a reason and you might be sitting out the dives in Elphinstone with some operators.
Sticking to a DM is a good idea for a novice divers (as us two) trust-me dives are not.

 

[Solly]

try to build more experience before heading to the brothers... it can be very rough there although at certain points we barely can see a single wave or face any kind of current.. but this was our luck on that specific trip !!!
I can suggest you extend the vacation a little bit have few days of daily diving (I recommend the same operator you will be heading to the brothers with) then head to the brothers, it will make you familiar with your rental gear and the general dive operation in Egypt.

Your budget depends on the dive operator and overall package, whether you will head to Egypt n charter or use regular airlines... check with your local travel agent and also most of the good operators would post the price and schedule (including flights from some countries) on their website.

more info can be found on our SB mate samaka website WELCOME TO AZIAB he is swedish living and working in Egypt for quiet sometime and is a very valuable source of info.... you can drop him a line as well....

 

[Bjornas]

The brothers you can expect rough seas, vertical drops to many thousands of metres, very strong currents including downcurrents.

You do need to be comfortable in those sorts of conditions and be familiar with things such as delayed SMB use, small and large boat procedures in rough water and so on. Its relatively challenging.

I see, I'm not sure I'm familiar with any of that actually especially not the small boat procedures. Could you explain the delayed SMB use briefly?

I think you would enjoy shore dives or trips on a day boat in Egypt more to fine tune your buoancy and trim.
Fighting current and bouancy at the same time distracts from the beautiful corals and fish.
The 50 dive recommendation does have a reason and you might be sitting out the dives in Elphinstone with some operators.
Sticking to a DM is a good idea for a novice divers (as us two) trust-me dives are not.

Good point, if it turns out I don't have "what it takes" while on the boat I'd be really bummed. I don't think I'd want to stick to daytrips however as I only want to dive on this vacation. Daytrips wouldn't suffice

About the red sea liveaboards in general: From what I've gathered by browsing the web there seems to be certain predesigned routes that the boats go by, with stops at the divesites. Wreck-trip in the north, 'simply the best' (brothers, daedalus, elphinstone), and a few others. Would a liveaboard St. Johns (+fury shoals?) be better suited for a guy like me? It looks to be closer to shore and I read somewhere that the recommendation was only 30+ dives.

try to build more experience before heading to the brothers... it can be very rough there although at certain points we barely can see a single wave or face any kind of current.. but this was our luck on that specific trip !!!
I can suggest you extend the vacation a little bit have few days of daily diving (I recommend the same operator you will be heading to the brothers with) then head to the brothers, it will make you familiar with your rental gear and the general dive operation in Egypt.

Your budget depends on the dive operator and overall package, whether you will head to Egypt n charter or use regular airlines... check with your local travel agent and also most of the good operators would post the price and schedule (including flights from some countries) on their website.

more info can be found on our SB mate samaka website WELCOME TO AZIAB he is swedish living and working in Egypt for quiet sometime and is a very valuable source of info.... you can drop him a line as well....

Good idea, I'm gonna take a closer look and see if it's possible.

I was thinking about getting one of those 'packages', they seem like quite a bargain. From what I understand "return flights to Egypt" means that they include plane tickets from my country aswell? I've joined the Aziab facebook-group and will contact samaka later for some ideas. I've seen him around here and he seems to know his stuff indeed!

Man, I'm so excited about doing this trip and it's more than a year away, if I can go at all! Thanks again,
/Bjorn

 

[TSandM]

If I'm reading you correctly, not only are you somewhat of a new diver, but you will also have been out of the water for almost a year before you make this trip? That combination would make me think that some of the dives I've done in the Red Sea would really not be very appropriate.

We've made two trips, a total of 17 days in all, including two to the Brothers, and one that went south to Elphinstone and Daedalus. Although there were currents (especially on the second trip) our boat was able to place us where they were mild, for those of us who don't like high velocity drifts. We did some beautiful sites on the southern itinerary that were quite easy, with shallow bottoms and calm water, but it isn't always like that, and the "big" sites are massive walls that fall off well below recreational depths. I think you need excellent buoyancy control and a fair amount of poise to dive those places safely, because up and down currents can occur, and surface water conditions for RIB transport and reboarding can be challenging.

We also saw one shark total in the whole second trip, and he was under the boat . . .

 

[ocdiver1]

Hey Bjorn...have dove the Similans/Surins and Brothers/Elphinstone (haven't been to Daedalus) and would say that B/E was more challenging...but you ask if it's theoretically possible with your experience to dive there with your experience and i would say "yes." Now the times I was there we didn't have the type of conditions that I understand many times can be there...seas weren't incredibly rough, there certainly was current, but nothing of the up/down variety, etc. The statement you make being "cautious" in the Surins leads me to think you'd have you have the right thought process when diving at these sites in sticking to your dm, etc. You'd have to check with operators you are interested in about the 50 dive minimum to see if its an absolute requirement, and see what they say...I do always see it as a given minimum..but I've certainly met divers before with 30 dives who have better skills than those with 100+. Perhaps the dm just can give you extra attention on the boat and you can go, and hopefully you won't have to sit out any dives if conditions are really bad. Another poster makes a great recommendation in going early and getting in some local dives before your LOB departs.


I do think the itinerary you are thinking about is the best the Red Sea has to offer, and the good news about Red Sea diving is that liveaboards there are cheaper than anywhere else in the world. If you really shop around, and are willing/able to go last minute, I've gone for as little as $750 USD with a perfectly good boat and operator. A fantastic operator is Blueotwo..more expensive than I've mentioned, but sometimes you can get a departure down to $1300 or less. I've booked through aquatours.com before..a British company..their website gives a good list of what's out there, last minute specials, and trips inclusive of airfare (although from the UK, I realize you're from Sweden). There are loads of low cost flights from Europe into Hurghada..which is nice as you can avoid Cairo and the unrest there. I know you're looking for pelagics, but as with another poster's experience, I personally have seen very few sharks at these sites or in the Egyptian Red Sea in general..just a couple of several months worth of diving there..but these spots should give you the best chance.

If you'd like any other advice about trying to obtain discounts, pm me. If I think about it I can probably remember who I've contacted before than went down the lowest in price last minute..as I also always have to travel on a budget.

 

[Red Sea Leonfish]

Hi Bjorn,

I can't comment on all of the places you are considering but I can speak with first hand experience of having been in dive groups blown off of both the Numidia and the Aida at Big Brother Island just last week. The currents switched mid-dive - despite a competent current-check by our guide - and group cohesion went out of the window. Then, on a wall swim (trying to get back to the light-house where our boat was moored) most people gave up and ended up being washed several hundred meters to the point right at the other end of the island!

To dive the Brothers you absolutely must be confident enough in your self and your buddy to be happy finishing a dive by deploying a marker bouy from depth and awaiting a rib pick-up (and be prepared to do this yourself without a guide). The 50 dive-minimum is probably a bit low (depending on other experience and time out of the water) and I would suggest that 75-100 would be more realistic.

It may just be that I was there on the wrong day but see this review ( Southern Red Sea Diving - Brother Islands - The Brothers ) for general comments:

"Currents: Can be strong
Surface conditions: Can be rough
Water temperature: 23 - 30°C
Experience level: Intermediate - advanced"

With something like SCUBA you should always hope for the best but plan for the most likely worst case. At best, you might find yourself sitting out dives on the boat if the conditions are bad from the off. At worst, you might risk your own safety and that of your buddy, DM or dive group and, potentially, put yourself off ever diving again in the future.

My best advice would be to go for a week in Sharm el Sheikh and do plenty of day-boat diving. Ask to be taken - with a guide - out to places like Shark Observatory and Jolanda Reef in Ras Mohammed marine park and Thomson and Jackson Reef in Tiran. There you can experience some currents in a more controlled environment and practice DSMB deployment. Also, maybe do a few night dives at Temple or Ras Katy.

Then, once you've got some more experience, have another look at the 'big' liveaboard trips.

Happy diving!

 

[Bjornas]

Sorry for the late replies!

If I'm reading you correctly, not only are you somewhat of a new diver, but you will also have been out of the water for almost a year before you make this trip? That combination would make me think that some of the dives I've done in the Red Sea would really not be very appropriate.

We've made two trips, a total of 17 days in all, including two to the Brothers, and one that went south to Elphinstone and Daedalus. Although there were currents (especially on the second trip) our boat was able to place us where they were mild, for those of us who don't like high velocity drifts. We did some beautiful sites on the southern itinerary that were quite easy, with shallow bottoms and calm water, but it isn't always like that, and the "big" sites are massive walls that fall off well below recreational depths. I think you need excellent buoyancy control and a fair amount of poise to dive those places safely, because up and down currents can occur, and surface water conditions for RIB transport and reboarding can be challenging.

We also saw one shark total in the whole second trip, and he was under the boat . . .

I plan to make a few more dives in back in Sweden before I go, I actually did two yesterday so I now have 30 dives The conditions here are very different ofcourse, with a drysuit and 14C in the water, but it's better than nothing and it's good to handle the gear etc.

But I get what you mean, and although I'm aching to go to the 'best' sites I also understand that sometimes they are better left for the future. I'm still young afterall and have plenty of diving left to do in my life.

Hey Bjorn...have dove the Similans/Surins and Brothers/Elphinstone (haven't been to Daedalus) and would say that B/E was more challenging...but you ask if it's theoretically possible with your experience to dive there with your experience and i would say "yes." Now the times I was there we didn't have the type of conditions that I understand many times can be there...seas weren't incredibly rough, there certainly was current, but nothing of the up/down variety, etc. The statement you make being "cautious" in the Surins leads me to think you'd have you have the right thought process when diving at these sites in sticking to your dm, etc. You'd have to check with operators you are interested in about the 50 dive minimum to see if its an absolute requirement, and see what they say...I do always see it as a given minimum..but I've certainly met divers before with 30 dives who have better skills than those with 100+. Perhaps the dm just can give you extra attention on the boat and you can go, and hopefully you won't have to sit out any dives if conditions are really bad. Another poster makes a great recommendation in going early and getting in some local dives before your LOB departs.

I do think the itinerary you are thinking about is the best the Red Sea has to offer, and the good news about Red Sea diving is that liveaboards there are cheaper than anywhere else in the world. If you really shop around, and are willing/able to go last minute, I've gone for as little as $750 USD with a perfectly good boat and operator. A fantastic operator is Blueotwo..more expensive than I've mentioned, but sometimes you can get a departure down to $1300 or less. I've booked through aquatours.com before..a British company..their website gives a good list of what's out there, last minute specials, and trips inclusive of airfare (although from the UK, I realize you're from Sweden). There are loads of low cost flights from Europe into Hurghada..which is nice as you can avoid Cairo and the unrest there. I know you're looking for pelagics, but as with another poster's experience, I personally have seen very few sharks at these sites or in the Egyptian Red Sea in general..just a couple of several months worth of diving there..but these spots should give you the best chance.

If you'd like any other advice about trying to obtain discounts, pm me. If I think about it I can probably remember who I've contacted before than went down the lowest in price last minute..as I also always have to travel on a budget.

Thanks for your reply and it's nice to hear from someone who can compare the sites. I've read both good and bad about the quantity of pelagics but it seems to depend alot on the time of the year (summertime seems to be ideal). Maybe the currents do aswell? Good thing I'm not gonna book anything until next year so I have plenty of time to do research on these areas, and whether do go straight to the Liveaboard or get a feel of the area first, and so on. I've read only good things about blueotwo aswell and am strongly considering them. Including gear rent and everything else, do you think that 1800-2000 euros is reasonable?

Hi Bjorn,

I can't comment on all of the places you are considering but I can speak with first hand experience of having been in dive groups blown off of both the Numidia and the Aida at Big Brother Island just last week. The currents switched mid-dive - despite a competent current-check by our guide - and group cohesion went out of the window. Then, on a wall swim (trying to get back to the light-house where our boat was moored) most people gave up and ended up being washed several hundred meters to the point right at the other end of the island!

To dive the Brothers you absolutely must be confident enough in your self and your buddy to be happy finishing a dive by deploying a marker bouy from depth and awaiting a rib pick-up (and be prepared to do this yourself without a guide). The 50 dive-minimum is probably a bit low (depending on other experience and time out of the water) and I would suggest that 75-100 would be more realistic.

It may just be that I was there on the wrong day but see this review ( Southern Red Sea Diving - Brother Islands - The Brothers ) for general comments:

"Currents: Can be strong
Surface conditions: Can be rough
Water temperature: 23 - 30°C
Experience level: Intermediate - advanced"

With something like SCUBA you should always hope for the best but plan for the most likely worst case. At best, you might find yourself sitting out dives on the boat if the conditions are bad from the off. At worst, you might risk your own safety and that of your buddy, DM or dive group and, potentially, put yourself off ever diving again in the future.

My best advice would be to go for a week in Sharm el Sheikh and do plenty of day-boat diving. Ask to be taken - with a guide - out to places like Shark Observatory and Jolanda Reef in Ras Mohammed marine park and Thomson and Jackson Reef in Tiran. There you can experience some currents in a more controlled environment and practice DSMB deployment. Also, maybe do a few night dives at Temple or Ras Katy.

Then, once you've got some more experience, have another look at the 'big' liveaboard trips.

Happy diving!

That sounds like a nightmare and something that would perhaps be too much for me to handle for now. Has it happened before or was it "just" a really bad day? I have no experience of deploying an SMB myself, or being relatively alone in the sea since I've always dived with a guide, but I actually thought that I should ask the DM to do it on one of the early dives before we got to Brothers, if I went there.

As for just day-diving it wouldn't really do it for me. I'm in no way trying to say I know better than you, but I went on the Liveaboard in the Andaman sea with a fresh OW certificate (taken 6 months earlier) and only 9 logged dives, and had no problems at all. Right now I feel that if I do this trip to Egypt it would have to be a Liveaboard. It's all for the diving and I wouldn't want to finish the two dives of the day and then sitting around waiting for tomorrow! Maybe I'm naive but I think the best way to build my experience (and also cross the 50 dives threshold) would be a week-long Liveaboard. Also talking to and learning from other divers on the boat would be great.

However I have plenty of respect for the sea and if you think the Brothers-trip would be rough for me then it certainly could be. I asked before about other Liveaboard trips and apart from the wreck trip (which I'm not really interested in), is there any other trip that could be better suited for someone in my position?

Thanks again for all your answers!
/Bjorn

 

[Solly]

for the SMB, deploying it near the end of the dive is not really a big problem in my opinion, you can practice this on check dive on the first day and there would be some easy dives before getting to the brothers.
However consider the following (this is based on what I saw with a fellow diver in one trip couple of years ago to the brothers), current check was done, we are supposed to get off at the zero point once we are off the zodiac we faced some current that was slight but this fellow diver was not getting down to shelter in the reef but was rather going with an angle so he was caught in the current pushing hm away from the reef to the blue, once he realized he tried to get back to the reef but the current was so strong that he couldn't and he surfaced (later on he said that the few minutes he was trying to get to the reef consumed half his air so he decided to cancel the dive as per the rules set in the briefing) he was out in the sea with high waves he wasn't seen from the boat and the zodiac guy made a mistake of not waiting for few minutes to make sure all are down.... the SMB saved his life as it was how he was spotted something around 15-20 minutes later in the middle of nowhere.... just an example of how things can go