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I think we probably all read the article. If its written it must be true?
boycott Peter Hughes Diving
- Thread starter sdiver02
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I think we probably all read the article. If its written it must be true?
DivePartner1
Contributor
It says the claim was settled through mediation for the limits of insurance, based on interviews with plaintiffs. Why are we talking about non-existent juries? If we think this is made up, why?
seems to be that people are focused on the liability-limiting effects of incorporating the parts of a business separately, and in separate places, and declaring that somehow "immoral" or "wrong".
Folks, its neither wrong or immoral.
The very act of incorporation serves to protect the owners from liability. That's one of the most important reasons why you incorporate in the first place!
Calling that "immoral" or anything of that kind is simply false; you don't boycott GE, Campbells, Chevy, Ford or your LDS for this practice, do you?
Yet all of them perform some varient of this practice. One LDS here that I am familiar with incorporates their dive boat separately from their shop, and I'm sure its for exactly the same reason PH did.
I do not fault any business-owner from protecting themselves and their enterprise from liability using any legal means, especially when we have juries in this country that will award people hundreds of thousands - or millions - for spilling hot coffee on their own 'nads. (And don't start with the "McDonalds KNEW their coffee was too hot" - so what? Its still stupid beyond words - and IMHO beyond justification for an award - to stick a cup of hot coffee between your legs while driving a car.)
The most-telling issue here, IMHO, is that the vessel was docked. The pax could have disembarked. They decided not to. That they were not ordered off the boat is simply immaterial to the question at hand - if you are fixing to stick yourself in harm's way I'm not obligated to stop you from doing it. Anyone who dives should understand this - the boat operator is not responsible if I, through my own action or inaction, find myself at 300', narked out of my mind, with no gas and a 2 hour deco obligation.
Why is it that when the same kind of stupidity happens on the surface, again through the pax individual choices, its suddenly someone else's fault?
I regret the loss of life. But I find it very, very difficult to defend a passenger's decision to stay on board combined with an attempt by that pax's estate to collect for their death, when they were in port and the pax could have disembarked.
Folks, its neither wrong or immoral.
The very act of incorporation serves to protect the owners from liability. That's one of the most important reasons why you incorporate in the first place!
Calling that "immoral" or anything of that kind is simply false; you don't boycott GE, Campbells, Chevy, Ford or your LDS for this practice, do you?
Yet all of them perform some varient of this practice. One LDS here that I am familiar with incorporates their dive boat separately from their shop, and I'm sure its for exactly the same reason PH did.
I do not fault any business-owner from protecting themselves and their enterprise from liability using any legal means, especially when we have juries in this country that will award people hundreds of thousands - or millions - for spilling hot coffee on their own 'nads. (And don't start with the "McDonalds KNEW their coffee was too hot" - so what? Its still stupid beyond words - and IMHO beyond justification for an award - to stick a cup of hot coffee between your legs while driving a car.)
The most-telling issue here, IMHO, is that the vessel was docked. The pax could have disembarked. They decided not to. That they were not ordered off the boat is simply immaterial to the question at hand - if you are fixing to stick yourself in harm's way I'm not obligated to stop you from doing it. Anyone who dives should understand this - the boat operator is not responsible if I, through my own action or inaction, find myself at 300', narked out of my mind, with no gas and a 2 hour deco obligation.
Why is it that when the same kind of stupidity happens on the surface, again through the pax individual choices, its suddenly someone else's fault?
I regret the loss of life. But I find it very, very difficult to defend a passenger's decision to stay on board combined with an attempt by that pax's estate to collect for their death, when they were in port and the pax could have disembarked.
Does anyone know of a incident report? I would be interested in reading it. I would like to see the different perspectives of people who were there.
Natasha
Contributor
The title of this thread makes my blood boil.
Hmm, I think its soo fair that people who had booked trips on the boat in advance before the accident can't get their money back....ohh yeah, sounds soo fair.
I have moved a portion of this message pending verification - should it prove to be true I will repost it.
Rick
I have moved a portion of this message pending verification - should it prove to be true I will repost it.
Rick
Remind me if I am ever on one of their boats to keep my 40 in bed with me with the valve turned on.
LegoPacific
Guest
Here are a few timelines from independant sources:
http://www.cyberdiver.net/cdnn/wavedancer/phdtimeline/phdtimeline.html
http://www.scubadiving.com/feature/news/102301phtornado.shtml
http://www.peterhughes.com/phwave/Iris.htm
http://www.soundingsonline.com/archive.story/1565.html
Sure, I'd like to see the report from the Belizean maritime authorities (due last Feb), but it appears that this report is being swept under the rug. The events of 9/11 have overshadowed this tragedy, so the mainstream press has never applied pressure to Belize or PHDI. In fact PHDI is operating once again in Belize.
In a perfect world, we'd like to have additional information such as:
1. Why did the Wave Dancer anchored at Lighthouse Reef and then chose to head to Big Creek (in the direct path of the approaching hurricane) rather than return to Belize City?
2. Why were the radios removed? The only reason I can see for removing the radios is to avoid alerting the passengers.
3. At sea, were the passenger informed of the risks and did they choose to "ride it out?" This seems unlikely given that the radios on the dive deck and in the kitchen were removed. Only the captain and teh crew would have known the storm's forecast track and intensity. One of the crew even left the Wave Dancer despite the threat of being fired.
4. Once at dock, with the knowledge that a category IV hurricane was going to hit, were the passengers informed of the dangers or the option to go ashore? This also seems unlikely. When the ship broke free from the dock, one of the surviving passengers reported that he went below to retrieve a life jacket from his cabin. If the passengers were informed of the impending danger, wouldn't those life jackets be on or near at hand?
5. How was PHDI involved in the decisions to move the Wave Dancer and inform the passengers? PHDI admits that the Wave Dancer was in contact with thier "land agent" who advised them NOT to return to Belize City becuase "the city was being evacuated and their was no place to take the passengers to sit out the storm in Belize City." Note: more than 20,000 people were evactuated from Belize City. I find it hard to believe that there wasn't room for 28 more.
http://www.cyberdiver.net/cdnn/wavedancer/phdtimeline/phdtimeline.html
http://www.scubadiving.com/feature/news/102301phtornado.shtml
http://www.peterhughes.com/phwave/Iris.htm
http://www.soundingsonline.com/archive.story/1565.html
Sure, I'd like to see the report from the Belizean maritime authorities (due last Feb), but it appears that this report is being swept under the rug. The events of 9/11 have overshadowed this tragedy, so the mainstream press has never applied pressure to Belize or PHDI. In fact PHDI is operating once again in Belize.
In a perfect world, we'd like to have additional information such as:
1. Why did the Wave Dancer anchored at Lighthouse Reef and then chose to head to Big Creek (in the direct path of the approaching hurricane) rather than return to Belize City?
2. Why were the radios removed? The only reason I can see for removing the radios is to avoid alerting the passengers.
3. At sea, were the passenger informed of the risks and did they choose to "ride it out?" This seems unlikely given that the radios on the dive deck and in the kitchen were removed. Only the captain and teh crew would have known the storm's forecast track and intensity. One of the crew even left the Wave Dancer despite the threat of being fired.
4. Once at dock, with the knowledge that a category IV hurricane was going to hit, were the passengers informed of the dangers or the option to go ashore? This also seems unlikely. When the ship broke free from the dock, one of the surviving passengers reported that he went below to retrieve a life jacket from his cabin. If the passengers were informed of the impending danger, wouldn't those life jackets be on or near at hand?
5. How was PHDI involved in the decisions to move the Wave Dancer and inform the passengers? PHDI admits that the Wave Dancer was in contact with thier "land agent" who advised them NOT to return to Belize City becuase "the city was being evacuated and their was no place to take the passengers to sit out the storm in Belize City." Note: more than 20,000 people were evactuated from Belize City. I find it hard to believe that there wasn't room for 28 more.
Here is the telling paragraph from the information you cited:
"Oct 8 Monday 1600 - Local Belizean mayor advises Aggressor/Wave Dancer party to evacuate boats and move immediately to shelter of a new concrete home. Bus transportartion is offered for all. The warnings are ignored and the offer declined as preparations aboard Wave Dancer and Aggressor continue for a "Hurricane" dinner party."
Of all the mistakes made by all the parties, this one was (with hindsight, again) probably the worst. This is one of the mistakes I did not care to illuminate in my earlier plea to let this whole unfortunate episode go without further attacks on PHD.
---------------------
There is a wonderful, though sad, little book called "A weekend in September" which is the story of the Galveston storm of 1900, the worst natural disaster ever recorded in the United States, where at least 8,000 and probably 12,000 died. Almost without exception, whenever anyone tells me their reasoning for deciding to "ride out the storm" they unwittingly quote someone from that little book - someone who died in the Galveston storm.
As for me... well, whenever anyone asks me to go diving in the lower Gulf or northern Caribbean between 1 August and Thanksgiving, I just show 'em a satellite picture of the area from September 14th, 1988.
I have cancelled my trip to the Gulf for this weekend, and will remain 150 miles inland.
Rick
It astonishes me that not more respect was paid by all (especially licensed captains) to a category 4 hurricane. I have sat through a category 1 and never plan to do something that stupid again.
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