Bad doctor

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Amber

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This isn't about diving medicine but I really don't know where else to ask.
I just got done talking to my mom's friend that recently went to the doctor. She told me that the doctor gave her what he said was sleeping pills. After doing research on them...she found out they are used to treat depression. The doctor also told her that she could take benadryl while on it....the pharmacist told her that she definatly should NOT take that while on that medicine. Another thing...the doctor knows that she is trying to get pregnant, but the drug can cause birth abnormalities.
All this smells a bit fishy to me. What should she do?

Amber
 
Pharmacist's know much more about drug interactions and issues than an MD would ever hope of knowing. She should consult her pharmacist and find out all know contraindications and then take her knowledge back to her doctor and ask him to discuss her condition with her.
 
That is pretty much all you can do. I definitely would get a second opinion on the pills as well.

Most people put a lot of misplaced faith in doctors. A doctor is just like everyone else. Some are good, some aren't.

Don't saddle yourself or someone you love with a crappy doctor.

I agree with Diver Lori's statement about pharmacists. I don't know if I would go back to the original doc. Once burned, etc.

In my humble opinion!
Peter Doege
 
Diver Lori once bubbled...
Pharmacist's know much more about drug interactions and issues than an MD would ever hope of knowing. She should consult her pharmacist and find out all know contraindications and then take her knowledge back to her doctor and ask him to discuss her condition with her.

I worked as a Pharmacy Tech for 25 years and I'll take a pharmacists knowledge of meds over a Dr.s any day. Most Dr.s don't have time to keep current on all the new meds coming out daily so they rely on sales reps for information. That info may or may not be slanted...coming from a salesman! Whereas keeping up with it is part of the pharmacists, and the techs, job. Alot of good Dr.s will call a pharmacist when they aren't sure about doseage, indications, etc.

The pharmacist will give you package inserts for the medication that will list it's contraindications. Or you can go to any good library, get the 2002 PDR and copy the same information and more. Call/visit the Dr. and discuss it. If he/she is reluctant to discuss or change the meds, get yourself to another Dr.
 
Howdy Amber:

You don't give nearly enough information to draw any conclusions, but I do have some general comments.

First, many antidepressants are sedating and they're often used as "sleeping pills" particularly when the doctor feels that depression might be contributing to the trouble sleeping. Almost all true "sleeping pills" quickly lose effectiveness and it's often recommended that they only be taken for no more than 1-2 weeks. Antidepressants can help with sleeping for years.

What posters have said about most pharmacists' vs. most physicians' knowledge of medicines is true. I know that when I have a question about a medicine (and don't have a reference handy to look it up) I ask a pharmacist. But for the most part pharmacists are restricted to quoting drugs' labels- what the manufacturer recommends. Physicians in the US have no such limitation. Many drugs that are intended for one purpose by the manufacturer have perfectly acceptable uses in other areas- the manufacturer just hasn't gone to the trouble and expense to get the medicine approved for that use by the Food and Drug Administration. Prescibing antidepressants for sleep can be one such "off label" use.

The pharmacist is right. The label for Benedryl (diphenhydramine) says it should be used with caution with antidepressants. The primary reason for this caution is both Benadryl and many antidepressants are sedating and the effects of the two drugs can be additive. (Be careful taking antidepressants- you might fall asleep! ;-) Some other side effects (anticholinergic to be specific) can be additive too with some kinds of antidepressants (MAO inhibitors to be specific) so some patients should exercise particular caution when combining them- but none of that means Benadryl and antidepressants should never be combined. It depends on the antidepressant and the patient.

As far as antidepressants and pregnancy are concerned, all drugs should be used with caution in pregnancy. Like with drugs and diving, few drugs have been thoroughly evaluated for their risks in pregnancy in humans to really know what effect they'll have. Most antidepressants are considered low-risk with pregnancy but none are no-risk. There is a class of antidepressant (those pesky MAO inhibitors again) that have particular concerns in pregnancy because of their effects on mice and rats, but I don't believe that even their labels call for an absolute ban in pregnancy. (Not sure of that though. As a surgeon, I don't prescribe antidepressants. Maybe I'll ask the pharmacist ;-)

What's the bottom line? When a patient has concerns about a medicine they've been prescribed, they should discuss it with their pharmacist and physician (and looking it up theirself is a very good idea). And when a person has a concern about a medicine their mother's friend (or their Internet acquaintance's mother's friend ;-) is taking, they should refrain from drawing conclusions until they have all the facts. Hearsay is a very unreliable basis for making a decision.

HTH,

Bill

The above information is intended for discussion purposes only and is not meant as specific medical advice for any individual.
 
I am not posting here to dis the knowledge of a pharmacist, but I have to disagree with the blanket statement that pharmacists know more about drugs and drug interactions than MDs will ever know. The person who was prescribed a sleeping pill and who was told by a pharmacist that it was an antidepressant is a classic case of the pharmacist "going by the book" in the absence of knowledge the clinical situation.

The person was most likely prescribed a tricyclic antidepressant, which are mostly used these days as mild tranquilizers, muscle relaxants, or as adjuncts to the pharmaceutical management of depression with modern antdepressants.

So the pharmacist was just giving the patient the "label" description of the drug, not in the context of it being used for helping sleep, or whatever.

On the other hand, I usually try to remember to warn my patient that the label will say antidepressant, and explain the situation so that this kind of misunderstanding will not occur.

See, the books that are used as references for prescribing are very out of date, and there are many, many meds that are used for well researched and accepted usages that the huge reference tomes are just not caught up to yet.

As far as side effects go, the big books are written in a non clinical, CYA (cover your ass) format which must by law, list *every* side effect anyone has ever **thought** might have been due to the drug wheter is actually was or not. And the book does not usually list the side effects in a probability or "liklehood of happening" format. Again, the clinical situation MUST be taken into account, and this is something that having spent hours and hours with my patient over many years, I have a pretty good handle on, and this is not usually the case with the dispensing pharmacist.

This is not to say that I do not appreciate the call from the pharmacist on a drug interaction tha they pharmacist thinks I might have missed, but it is just that I am usually following current research or current patient oriented evidence based clinical guidelines that have not yet filtered down to the dispensing counter level yet, let alone the out of date reference manuals, which are usually several years behind the times.

I also use a hand held computer program that automatically check drug interactions that are possible given the set of meds my patient is on, so that can be checked before the patient leaves the office.

The package insert which is basically just a legal description of the drug is rarely useful in the clinical situation, and more often than not simply complicates or confounds the situation. I prefer to give the patient a description (written or verbal) of two types of side effects: the ones that are rare but dangerous, and the ones that are common but usualy not worrisome or are manaageable or transient, or whatever.

If, as a patient, the only info I received about the drug was that legal small print stuff, I guess it would confuse and frighten me too!

The patient - physician relationship is very, very important, and there must be a strong element of trust. I think if the patient has doubts or questions about the meds after the visit to the pharmacist, the patient should revisit the doc and talk over these concerns rather than jsut dismissing the medical advice and prescription outright.

Communication, communication, communication. Nothing beats it.

Regards,

Sandy
 
Dee once bubbled...


Most Dr.s don't have time to keep current on all the new meds coming out daily so they rely on sales reps for information. That info may or may not be slanted...coming from a salesman! Whereas keeping up with it is part of the pharmacists, and the techs, job. Alot of good Dr.s will call a pharmacist when they aren't sure about doseage, indications, etc.

Most self respecting docs DO NOT get their drug info from sales reps. Like most good docs, I get mine from CME courses, up to date peer reviewed journals, etc. I do listen to the drug reps, but most of what they say has to be taken in the context in which it is given - they are salespeople, not educators.

Keeping up with modern practice is a **huge** part of my job - no less so than the pharmacist, Dee! :)

Warm regards,

Sandy
 
The best thing a person can do with regard to their own health is to self advocate. As Doc Sandy pointed out - communicate, communicate, communicate. You need to ask your doc (or Nurse Practitioner) what the drug being prescribed is, what it does, what side effects can you expect, what follow up is required, etc. Can't remember things? I routinely bring notes when I hit the office - when symptoms started, how long they persisted, how long will this last, can I dive/drive/drink while taking this drug/condition...

Research - hit the Internet, not the chat rooms. Most of the major drug companies keep websites with information. Do a search. Sometimes the informal boards ARE a good way to find out about the things the drug companies do not want you know. Sometimes you find only garbage.

Second opinions - find the info confusing &/or conflicting? Seek a second opinion. In todays managed care market, few docs have the luxury to spend all the time they want or need with a pt. Seek out another doc or call your own doc back & ask to have your questions answered. Believe only half of what you read, none of what you hear. Remember this is your health/life, you must do it for yourself.

Good luck.
 
Jersey once bubbled...

Research - hit the Internet, not the chat rooms.
Agree wholeheartedly!



Second opinions - find the info confusing &/or conflicting? Seek a second opinion. [snip] Believe only half of what you read, none of what you hear. Remember this is your health/life, you must do it for yourself.


Well, yes - except not too many "second opinions" ! Then it can just get *really* confusing. Somewhere along the line you just have to trust, make a decision and go with it! :)

And - regarding: "Believe only half of what you read, none of what you hear." -- I would I guess, only state the obvious here - it depends on the source.

OK - Enough - I have to go to work now!

Will check in later!

Sandy
 
I knew I would step on some toes and maybe I should have prefaced my comment with "In my expereince" because the doctors I dealt with in this area do fit my description.

I wish, and sincerely do hope, more doctors are like you claim to be...good on ya! Unfortunaltely they aren't.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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