Anyone with PFO ?

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Externet

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Hello all.

My 16 year new daughter received her scuba training and certification. In the middle of collecting all her equipment, a routine medical check expanded to a cardiologist forbids her from diving due to the condition "Patent foramen ovale" PFO.
Do not know details about the dimension of the problem, but there is no symptoms with her very active gymnastics.

--->What experiences can you, fellow divers with this same condition tell about this, for shallow depths recreational diving ? I assume shallow being to ~35 feet depth.

--->Have any of you found to have this condition after many years diving ?

How many of us do not know if we have it and happily dive ? The incidence seems brutally high to up to 25%

We are very sad with the bad news :banghead:

Miguel
 
Externet:
Hello all.

My 16 year new daughter received her scuba training and certification. In the middle of collecting all her equipment, a routine medical check expanded to a cardiologist forbids her from diving due to the condition "Patent foramen ovale" PFO.
Do not know details about the dimension of the problem, but there is no symptoms with her very active gymnastics.

--->What experiences can you, fellow divers with this same condition tell about this, for shallow depths recreational diving ? I assume shallow being to ~35 feet depth.

--->Have any of you found to have this condition after many years diving ?

How many of us do not know if we have it and happily dive ? The incidence seems brutally high to up to 25%

We are very sad with the bad news :banghead:

Miguel
miguel, contact DAN (DIVERS ALERT NETWORK) check into all of this very carefully, this condition can increase the chances of embolisim, i believe!! though it (i think) depends on the severity!! again contact DAN!!! i am not a DR!! just am EMT!! i read a bit up on this condition and strongly feel DAN would be your best option!! sorry for your disapointment!!
 
PFOs can be repaired. Its considered a relatively minor procedure done with a closure device inserted with a catheter. I am not a doctor, but have learned a bit about this from DAN seminars. DAN is the best source for information and referral for repair.
 
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As everybody has already mentioned, contact DAN for more information on what you can do to fix the problem and how it affects divers in detail. From what I understand from the little reading I did earlier in the summer is that a PFO is a condition where the heart doesn't fully develope during a during birth. It apparently is a somewhat common problem affecting something like 25-35% of the population. What happens is flap valve doesn't fully close between the left and right atria during the pumping of blood. Under pressure this can allow gas bubbles to pass through the circulation system without being passed through the lungs for offgassing. These bubbles can flow through the blood vessels to the brain creating a condition called AGE (Arterial Gas Embolism). AGE is a very serious condition that has hospitalized and killed many divers.

I wouldn't risk diving, even in 35 ft of water until the problem is fixed.

Here is more information:

http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/news/article.asp?newsid=462

http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/articles/download/PFOart.pdf#search="PFO"

http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/faq/faq.asp?faqid=60
 
Through my husbands teaching of scuba we have run into several people with PFO's or ASD's (atrial septal defects) as some call them.

It seems that cardiologists who are not trained in diving medicine usually tell their patients that they shouldn't dive due to the condition however there have been several studies done over the years on this subject. I Believe Dr. Fred Bovee did one. I read a couple of articles a year or so ago in Diver Magazine (canadian publication) written by their diving physician and I have read what DAN has put out about it and as I remember none of them felt that it was (in most cases) a condition that should stop divers from diving to normal recreational depths for normal no decompression dives.

Many divers go on a blood thinner medication called Coumadin when this problem is discovered and again most diving docs don't mind divers diving on this medication as long as it is under control.

Apparently the way this flap of heart is designed to close upon birth is one of the most questionable of all operations in the body. I have heard numbers suggesting that up to 55% of people and maybe more have some level of this problem. This suggests that a huge number of divers have this problem to some degree and don't even know it.

everyone is an individule with unique differences especially when it comes to physiology.

Once any medical condition has been identified you should seek a doctors opinion on whether or not you should continue diving, Just make sure that it is a doctor who specializes in diving so they are well aware of the issues surrounding the sport.

Let us know what you find out about this.
 
Hi Externet,

Let's open on a positive note--PFO is not necessarily an absolute contraindication to recreational scuba. In fact, with repair it rarely is.

The following discussion of PFO and its implications for scuba, which is considerably more extensive than the information on DAN's website or with which they will otherwise provide you, may be educational. It's an updated and expanded piece based on an item appearing in my "Ask RSD" column in "Rodale's Scuba Diving":

"Scuba and Patent Foramen Ovale (PFO)

PFO, a type of atrial septal defect, is an abnormal opening between the right and left upper chambers of the heart (Basic Heart Anatomy----> http://texasheart.org/HIC/Anatomy/anatomy2.cfm).

It is normal for blood to flow through a small opening between these two chambers during fetal development when the lungs are inoperative and blood is oxygenated by the mother. At the moment of birth, however, changes in chamber pressures cause this membranous opening to close, shunting blood to the now functioning lungs.

While usually permanently sealed by very early in life, closure does not always occur; about one in every four persons has an incomplete closure of varying size. Without complete closure, blood can flow from the right to the left side of the heart without passing through the lungs.

Large and persistent PFO and other right-to-left shunts are associated with poor exercise tolerance, migraine headache (particularly migraine with aura) and the sudden loss of blood circulation to areas of the brain (ischemic stroke).

Because the left side of the heart is the "high pressure side," the majority of otherwise healthy persons with PFO, many with only small openings, are unaware they have the condition. However, given a shift in the normal pressure gradient between these two chambers of the heart, blood can flow in the wrong direction.

Of significance to divers with PFO is the increase in right chamber pressure which occurs with common equalization techniques like the Valsalva maneuver. Under this condition, inert gas bubbles that form in the venous bloodstream during decompression can pass directly into the arteries without the filtering action of the lungs.

Divers with PFO can develop decompression illness (DCI) manifestations ranging from relatively harmless skin rashes to serious neurological problems such as unconsciousness and paralysis.

Moreover, bubbles passing into the brain can obstruct blood vessels, resulting in lesions of various size. Studies of high frequency divers have documented an increased likelihood of large and/or multiple brain lesions, and shown that a high percentage of divers who had otherwise unexplained incidents of DCI turned out to have PFO. In addition, the risk of severe DCI appears to be about three to five times greater in those with PFO as compared to the general diving population; the relationship is much weaker for mild cases.

Despite research findings of increased risk of DCI in the presence PFO, the overall risk in the general population of divers still is very low. Most dive medicine experts do not recommend an echocardiogram as a routine procedure in healthy recreational divers. However, evaluation for PFO should seriously be considered given otherwise unexplained incidents of DCI, especially neurological DCI. A recent study showed an increase in the prevalence and size of PFO in divers followed over a 7 year span, suggesting a possible increasing risk for decompression sickness in certain divers over time.

At present, the gold standard for detecting the presence and nature of a PFO is transesophageal echocardiography (TEE) with bubble contrast (but see #1 below for non-invasive alternative techniques). This procedure allows bubbles passing from the right to the left to side of the heart to be observed. Even a relatively small number of bubbles is a matter of concern. The basic procedure is described here----> Echocardiography http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echocardiography.

If repair is indicated, the procedure selected depends upon a number of factors including the size of the opening. There are several approaches, including suturing of the defect or placing a tissue patch over it, although preferred where possible is the non-surgical placement of a blocking device such as the Amplatzer Septal Occluder described here----> Amplatzer http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/mda/docs/p000039.html. The placement of such occluding devices has a high rate of success and low rate of complications.

At some point following the repair TEE with bubble contrast likely will be repeated. With these findings and other information regarding fitness to dive, the diver and his physician can decide on the best course of action. Given an uncomplicated and successful closure in an otherwise healthy and fit individual, return to diving typically can be expected within 6-12 weeks. ©Doc Vikingo 2005"

#1 Should All Divers be Screened for PFO? ----> http://tenfootstop.blogspot.com/2006/07/should-all-divers-be-screened-for-pfo.html

This is educational only and does not constitute or imply a doctor-patient relationship. It is not medical advice with you or any other individual and should not be construed as such.

Helpful?

Regards,

DocVikingo
 
amascuba:
From what I understand from the little reading I did earlier in the summer is that a PFO is a condition where the heart doesn't fully "develope during a during birth (sic)

It really has nothing to do with the heart not fully developing during birth.

All fetuses have an opening between the two upper chambers of the heart (atria) known as the "foramen ovale." Since the fetus' lungs are in a collapsed and essentially non-aerated state, there's no point in the body endeavoring to circulate much blood to them. Only about 5 -10% of the blood in the pulmonary artery enters the lungs in the fetus.

At the moment of birth, the foramen ovale is no longer needed. With aeration of the lungs and increased pulmonary blood flow and pulmonary venous return to the left atrium, the pressure in that chamber becomes higher than in the right atrium. This increased pressure closes the flap valve between the two atria and the tissues eventually grow together over the first year of life.

In somewhere around 25% of persons complete closure does not occur. This is called "patent foramen ovale (PFO)". Depending upon its size and other factors, it may or may not be symptomatic.

Regards,

DocVikingo
 
Externet:

I'm an interventional cardiologist (who percutaneously closes PFOs) who also has an interest in diving medicine. What to do about PFOs is EXTREMELY debatable. As has been mentioned, approximately 25% of the population has this condition if you look for it closely enough. The biggest concern medically is the possibility of small clots that would usually be "cleared" by the lungs crossing the opening and causing a stroke. In fact, most studies of PFO closure are done in patients with what is called "cryptogenic stroke", meaning a stroke with no other obvious cause other than the PFO. In the past these patients have been treated with blood thinners or surgical closure but now have catheter-based closure as an option.

For divers PFO is even more debatable. The problem here is bubbles not clots passing through to the left side of the heart. Obviously, blood thinners have no role in this. I feel that the general consensus would be to close a PFO for a diver who had suffered an "undeserved" DCS hit. It's hard to recommend closing a PFO for an asymptomatic person as the procedure does have its own risks. As probably 25% of us divers have PFOs and never get "bent", my personal opinion is that, in general, it is okay to dive recreationally with a PFO. Commercial diving and technical diving where the "bubble-load" is much higher is another matter.

All of this having been said, you should talk to DAN or a diving medicine physician who knows the details of your daughter's specific case before making any decisions. PM me if you'd like any more info.

Doug
 
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