And the Winner is ... D100 & Ike! Now, how about Strobes?

[tschroeder250]

Okay, after reading all the valuable input on my previous thread (thank you everyone), I have decided to go ahead with the Ikelite to house my D100. It came down to the $$$.

I have a series of followup questions on the accessory equipment. This thread is about the strobes.

My understanding after reviewing the available info is that only manual strobe operation is allowed. Can the group confirm this? I see a lot of references to slave systems, and there is something that looks interesting at the following: Digital Adapter

Since I am totally new to still U/W photography, am I missing anything obvious? What about using video lights instead? What color temp should I aim for, or doesn't it matter too much since I can white balance? There was a thread about not needing strobes at all (just use white balance), but I find this doubtful, especially since I dive in low-light/no-light situations often.

One or two strobes? I note that the Ikelite DS-50 doesn't quite cover the wideangle as well as I would like, so would I be better off with the DS-125 or another vendor? In general, is there any good reason NOT to go with the Ikelite strobes?

Any and all input is appreciated!

-Todd

 

[fdog]

Your images will look far better with strobes. I dive with two strobes, but one is better to learn with.

There is no significant reason not to use Ikelite; in fact you can use just about any strobe you want. The problem (if you see it that way) is that they will be in manual mode, not TTL.

Briefly, here's why:

TTL works because the camera body has a sensor that looks at the film plane or image sensor, and when the amount of light from a flash is "just right" it generates a quench signal. This little electronic signal tells the strobe to turn off.

The problem is that the camera body won't generate a quench signal unless it thinks a TTL compatible strobe is attached to it. It gets this information from the (usually) hot shoe, on a special contact, through which the strobe sends a signal that says it is TTL compatible.

For cameras that are old, like the Nikonos V, the F5, etc, this signal was easy to mimic, and fool the camera into generating a TTL quench signal.

Of course, nothing stays simple. Digital cameras are more complicated, and so are the "TTL compatible" signals. So, no true TTL.

Two manufacturers that I know of have found ways of mimicking the TTL compatible signal: Aquatica on the Canon Rebel and Ikelite on the Oly 5060. You can see the Aquatica TTL circuit board here. My understanding they will be expanding this module to other camera bodies, such as the Nikon D70.

For your camera body/housing, you are stuck with manual. This is not all bad. You have better control of the light in manual, and I prefer to shoot in manual. With a digital camera, you can review the image immediately (the histogram is especially handy for this), and change the strobe settings. OTOH, macro, especially if you're starting out, is way easier with TTL.

There are other workarounds...strobe controllers that fill the function of the TTL by looking at reflected light (about$150), etc. And, don't confuse this with "digital strobes", as these are strobes that can mimic the preflash of most mainstream (not SLR type) digital cameras.

Whew. A lot of explaining without just blindly throwing you a make/model at you, which anyway would just be what I use, and not necessarily what's right for you. But, you asked for it: for manual/TTL, I use Ikelite strobes. They have lived through an amazingly hard life, never failed to function, had GREAT customer service and repair, and outperform most strobes I've seen or used. My choices have been the Substrobe 225, 400 and the small MS50 as slaved fill strobes. If I was buying for low horsepower, I would be looking at the Substrobe 200.

I have heard good things about the Inon strobes, although I haven't laid hands on one yet. Small and controllable. A problem with these may be the sync cord, which for the Inon appears to have a Nikonos connector. Your housing has an Ikelite connector I'm sure. If you buying "nothing fancy" most makes of strobes will do you well. Just price out the cost for a new sync cord (if not an Ikelite strobe) and/or bulkhead, and the costs can add up considerably; you did mention you are on a budget.

Opinions vary, but I believe that the Nikonos strobe connection is a sad inheritance from the early days. Not the least is that the o-ring has to pass over threads, risking nicking and a leak, plus an absurdly high profile to the whole assembly. The Ikelite connector places the threads on the outside, away from the o-ring on the inside, is low profile, and for me has never leaked.

You asked about things you may have overlooked: strobe arms. These come in all flavors and prices. I have a mix of TLC and Ikelite. Start out inexpensive, with two arm segments, so you can do both wide angle and macro.

Anyway, I'm rambling. You will be stuck in manual, with a possibility of TTL in the future as a retrofit, so purchase the strobe with that in mind. If you eBay, mentally add about $80, the cost of a major overhaul.

All the best, James

 

[Marriard]

TTL really isn't that important. With the feedback you get from digital as long as you can get enough manual settings on the strobe and some good strobe arms you are in good shape.

I have TTL capabilities on my system which I rarely use.

If you buy Ikelite spend the extra money and buy the DS-125's. Ike has great service but I had to use it way more than I ever wanted to. Eventually it drove me nuts and I finally switched to Inon.

I prefer Inon Strobes - they will require a Ike-SEA&SEA strobe cord which should be easy enought to obtain. They are really reliable, lighter than the ikes and an excellent strobe. Careful though - Inon strobes are regularly on backorder so make sure they are in stock before you order. Spend the extra money and get the Inon 220's.

Personally I don't like Sea&Sea. Others may have different opinions.

Forget video lights. I have occasionally seen some great results with Video Lights, but you don't have the control you have with Strobes nor the quick intensity of light (which normally means wider apertures/slower shutter speeds).

M

 

[tschroeder250]

Your images will look far better with strobes. I dive with two strobes, but one is better to learn with.

There is no significant reason not to use Ikelite; in fact you can use just about any strobe you want. The problem (if you see it that way) is that they will be in manual mode, not TTL.

Briefly, here's why:

TTL works because the camera body has a sensor that looks at the film plane or image sensor, and when the amount of light from a flash is "just right" it generates a quench signal. This little electronic signal tells the strobe to turn off.

The problem is that the camera body won't generate a quench signal unless it thinks a TTL compatible strobe is attached to it. It gets this information from the (usually) hot shoe, on a special contact, through which the strobe sends a signal that says it is TTL compatible.

For cameras that are old, like the Nikonos V, the F5, etc, this signal was easy to mimic, and fool the camera into generating a TTL quench signal.

Of course, nothing stays simple. Digital cameras are more complicated, and so are the "TTL compatible" signals. So, no true TTL.

Two manufacturers that I know of have found ways of mimicking the TTL compatible signal: Aquatica on the Canon Rebel and Ikelite on the Oly 5060. You can see the Aquatica TTL circuit board here. My understanding they will be expanding this module to other camera bodies, such as the Nikon D70.

For your camera body/housing, you are stuck with manual. This is not all bad. You have better control of the light in manual, and I prefer to shoot in manual. With a digital camera, you can review the image immediately (the histogram is especially handy for this), and change the strobe settings. OTOH, macro, especially if you're starting out, is way easier with TTL.

There are other workarounds...strobe controllers that fill the function of the TTL by looking at reflected light (about$150), etc. And, don't confuse this with "digital strobes", as these are strobes that can mimic the preflash of most mainstream (not SLR type) digital cameras.

Whew. A lot of explaining without just blindly throwing you a make/model at you, which anyway would just be what I use, and not necessarily what's right for you. But, you asked for it: for manual/TTL, I use Ikelite strobes. They have lived through an amazingly hard life, never failed to function, had GREAT customer service and repair, and outperform most strobes I've seen or used. My choices have been the Substrobe 225, 400 and the small MS50 as slaved fill strobes. If I was buying for low horsepower, I would be looking at the Substrobe 200.

I have heard good things about the Inon strobes, although I haven't laid hands on one yet. Small and controllable. A problem with these may be the sync cord, which for the Inon appears to have a Nikonos connector. Your housing has an Ikelite connector I'm sure. If you buying "nothing fancy" most makes of strobes will do you well. Just price out the cost for a new sync cord (if not an Ikelite strobe) and/or bulkhead, and the costs can add up considerably; you did mention you are on a budget.

Opinions vary, but I believe that the Nikonos strobe connection is a sad inheritance from the early days. Not the least is that the o-ring has to pass over threads, risking nicking and a leak, plus an absurdly high profile to the whole assembly. The Ikelite connector places the threads on the outside, away from the o-ring on the inside, is low profile, and for me has never leaked.

You asked about things you may have overlooked: strobe arms. These come in all flavors and prices. I have a mix of TLC and Ikelite. Start out inexpensive, with two arm segments, so you can do both wide angle and macro.

Anyway, I'm rambling. You will be stuck in manual, with a possibility of TTL in the future as a retrofit, so purchase the strobe with that in mind. If you eBay, mentally add about $80, the cost of a major overhaul.

All the best, James

Thanks James ... I have a basic question for you. After reviewing all the info here and talking with some sales people and other photograhpers, I have pretty much decided to go with a main strobe with reasonable power, and a lower power strobe to do macro and fill. Given that I have to operate in manual mode, how exactly do the strobes fire? Does the main strobe use a slave sensor pointed at the camera, and is the optional fill strobe sync'd to the main?

-Todd

 

[fdog]

With your housing, you will be connecting the main strobe (regardless of the make) via a sync cord. This is pretty reliable, provided you take good care of the o-rings.

As far as the fill strobe goes, the question becomes, are you buying new, or are you willing to look at used?

If new, you are stuck with a sync cord that has a single connector for the housing, and that splits off to two cords, one for each strobe ($140). This is a dual sync cord.

There is a second (bought new) option: most manufacturers sell a controller unit that you would connect your fill strobe to. This controller looks for a brief pulse of intense light, which usually does not occour in nature. The controller then triggers the strobe attached to it. Strobes used this way are called slaves. Cost here is the fill strobe, a controller ($130) and another sync cord ($80).

Strobes from the late 80's to mid 90's could be bought with the slave sensor built in. As an example, the Ikelite SubStrobe 225 came standard so equipped. The 225 became the 300, and is now the 400, which still has the slave function as well as being an amazingly powerful strobe. Sadly, most new strobe designs have lost the built-in slave function.

The low end of the Ikelite line also was available with a 50 watt-second (small) strobe that had the slave function built in. This MS50 is now out of production. Too bad, because it is the perfect fill strobe: excellent slave circuitry, small size, and no sync cord required.

New, the Sea & Sea YS-30 will work as a small slave. I believe in the range of $400. A few models of the YS-90 have slave built in as well, about $650.

So, this brings up the other option: used. You can eBay a Ikelite MS50 in great shape for about $50. The factory overhaul is pretty cheap, maybe another $50.

I have stuck with my MS50's as fill strobes because of the no wires attached thing. This also makes it easy to disconnect it from a strobe arm and hand-hold it for really creative fill. I have often placed it behind subjects for a bit of halo, which does look cool occasionally.

All the best, James