CONCEPTION AFTERMATH - COAST GUARD ISSUES NEW RULES/REGULATIONS

[boulderjohn]

But what's most costly would be the structural changes, to make egress from the bunk spaces more "open" with no bunks in the way,

Let's look at the cost factor related to the Conception. The boat had a good sized load of passengers, but it was not nearly 100% full. How often was it 100% full? I suspect not often. If the bunks blocking the escape hatch had been removed, it would have cost them a couple of paying customers on the rare trips when it would have been full.

 

[KevinNM]

The big problem is that it appears that you need to get plans to modify the boat’s hatches approved by the CGs national center. This seems to not be a fast process.

 

[KevinNM]

Let's look at the cost factor related to the Conception. The boat had a good sized load of passengers, but it was not nearly 100% full. How often was it 100% full? I suspect not often. If the bunks blocking the escape hatch had been removed, it would have cost them a couple of paying customers on the rare trips when it would have been full.

But that wouldn’t have actually helped. Exiting into a fire just isn’t survivable. The mod on the Vision would have, but last I heard the USCG had pulled the license pending a review of the exits by their national center, the one that usually looks at people modifying LNG tankers, not little boats.

 

[Wookie]

But that wouldn’t have actually helped. Exiting into a fire just isn’t survivable. The mod on the Vision would have, but last I heard the USCG had pulled the license pending a review of the exits by their national center, the one that usually looks at people modifying LNG tankers, not little boats.

Marine Safety Center. They review all design for existing and new vessels. But the LNG tanker guy doesn’t review escape trunks on passenger vessels. It isn’t like that.

The vessel stability guy reviews stability, regardless of vessel type. The strength guy for wooden vessels is not the same person as the strength guy for steel vessels. The arrangements guy may very well be the same person for both tankers as well as passenger vessels. S/he is, after all, the expert on escape trunks.

When Spree went through load line review, it took 25 reviews to review a dozen drawings.

 

[Wookie]

That's my read on it too. In other words, a shrimp or squid boat that's out commercial fishing with only a crew and no paying passengers does not fall under these regulations. A dive boat on an overnight trip does. A passenger fishing vessel taking recreational fishermen out also falls under the guidelines. The wording is indeed confusing.

No. Not confusing at all. Every documented vessel comes in one of 4 flavors: recreational, coastwise, fishing, and registry. It tells what the vessel is used for and how it may be used.

A registry vessel is one that may proceed into international waters, beyond 200 miles, or into foreign waters. If you aren’t documented registry, don’t sail out of the country.

A coastwise vessel is allowed to sail from US port to US port with no foreign stops between. The only exception is Key West. You do not need a coastwise certificate to sail from key west to another US Port.

A recreational vessel is allowed to carry passengers, not for hire. It may be bareboat chartered.

A fishery vessel is allowed to go fishing, and be paid for it. It may be a shrimp trawler, it may be a headboat with overnight accommodation, it may be a crabber on deadliest catch.

Spree held coastwise and registry. I had to log voyage type prior to getting underway. A registry voyage allowed me to sail foreign with up to 12 passengers. A coastwise allowed me to sail domestically with 125. Each voyage type gives permissions and carries restrictions.

 

[boulderjohn]

But that wouldn’t have actually helped. Exiting into a fire just isn’t survivable.

No, it would not have helped in that specific situation, but it would have helped in a different situation. As it was designed, the exit hatch over the top of the third bunk would not have been a viable escape under any situation. It would have taken too long for any person to get out while everyone else was patiently awaiting a turn, and some people in that group would not have been able to do it at all.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

. . . The boat had a good sized load of passengers, but it was not nearly 100% full. How often was it 100% full? I suspect not often. . . .

That's not correct. For diving trips, a full load was generally 33 divers. So while their overall capacity on the COI was higher, 33 was 100% full. And especially for multi-day trips, that was frequently the norm, especially when the boat was chartered. The economics are such that the charterer only was making money on the last 3 or 4 spots (depending on how much they were charging for the trip).

 

[Ken Kurtis]

. . . The mod on the Vision would have, but last I heard the USCG had pulled the license pending a review of the exits by their national center, the one that usually looks at people modifying LNG tankers, not little boats.

My understanding was that the modification was done on the Vision to everyone's satisfaction but the hang up was the ladder from the bunkroom through the hatch to the outside weather deck. It wasn't that the regulators didn't think it was a good idea. The Catch 22 was that USCG didn't have any standards in place for this modification THEY ASKED FOR so they couldn't sign off on it. Bureaucracy at its best/worst.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

As it was designed, the exit hatch over the top of the third bunk would not have been a viable escape under any situation. It would have taken too long for any person to get out while everyone else was patiently awaiting a turn, and some people in that group would not have been able to do it at all.

I somewhat disagree with this analysis. (And I think you've not been on Conception or Vision John, so feel free to correct me if that's wrong.)

The hatch was above one of the back bunks, center of the boat. It exited into the rear of the galley/salon and when you came up through it, you would have been facing the back of the boat. The distance from the hatch out the galley/salon and to the open back deck was - my estimation - 10 feet or so and you passed through a 6-foot-wide opening to get out. I believe you MIGHT (certainly not a slam dunk) have been able to get out of the hatch, run at top speed that last ten feet to the back deck (which early on was not engulfed in fire) and other stayed on the back deck or jumped over into the ocean.

Could 33 people have made it through? Don't know. And because there is still, even with these new regs, no standard for how long it should take to evacuate a bunkroom - for perspective, every airplane has to meet a 90-second evacuate standard to be certified to fly - there's no way to know for sure.

But as for a blanket statement that no one could have gotten out and the escape hatch was essentially useless, I will respectfully disagree.

 

[Scared Silly]

I somewhat disagree with this analysis. (And I think you've not been on Conception or Vision John, so feel free to correct me if that's wrong.)

The hatch was above one of the back bunks, center of the boat. It exited into the rear of the galley/salon and when you came up through it, you would have been facing the back of the boat. The distance from the hatch out the galley/salon and to the open back deck was - my estimation - 10 feet or so and you passed through a 6-foot-wide opening to get out. I believe you MIGHT (certainly not a slam dunk) have been able to get out of the hatch, run at top speed that last ten feet to the back deck (which early on was not engulfed in fire) and other stayed on the back deck or jumped over into the ocean.

Could 33 people have made it through? Don't know. And because there is still, even with these new regs, no standard for how long it should take to evacuate a bunkroom - for perspective, every airplane has to meet a 90-second evacuate standard to be certified to fly - there's no way to know for sure.

But as for a blanket statement that no one could have gotten out and the escape hatch was essentially useless, I will respectfully disagree.

Years ago I was on the Horizon and had the escape hatch bunk. For grins I went out the hatch just to see what it took. For me little. But I am lean and agile. As I recall, exiting on the salon floor was more of belly crawl because one needs to go up and out three feet. In an emergency and with smoke, which once the hatch is open is going to become a chimney, a few might get out.

Also there are many people on these boats who have a hard enough time getting into the bunks. There is no way they would've been able to navigate the bunk exits expediently in a drill, let alone at all in an emergency.