Avelo--I guess there's no need for me to recommend fundies anymore....

[loosenit2]

So why would I want something that costs money, introduces another failure point (or at least one) and requires that I change the way I dive when it took me over 200 dives to get my buoyancy in reasonable shape with the gear I use now.

Why would I get an infernal engine with 4 wheels when I have a perfectly good horse that I love and gets me where I want to go?

because if we are not moving forward we are dying.

who knows if it will work as advertised or not, but I love them for trying.

 

[dlofting]

Why would I get an infernal engine with 4 wheels when I have a perfectly good horse that I love and gets me where I want to go?

because if we are not moving forward we are dying.

who knows if it will work as advertised or not, but I love them for trying.

Because the infernal engine gets me where I want to go faster, doesn't require rub downs or currying and carrys a bigger payload....all of which makes it a more attractive transportation mechanism.

The new scuba tank does nothing for me that the old one didn't and possibly introduces complications that I didn't have before. Not every new thing invented actually "moves us forward".

 

[beester]

So why would I want something that costs money, introduces another failure point (or at least one) and requires that I change the way I dive when it took me over 200 dives to get my buoyancy in reasonable shape with the gear I use now.

But that's the point I guess. It took you 200 dives to get your buoyancy sorted. I believe this will be marketed at divecentres who mainly cater to "rich" beginning divers who don't dive locally. It won't be a system that you buy yourself, but an option at the dive base.

Buoyancy is an issue for beginning (rebreather ) divers, they notice it immediately on their first pool scuba dive. So as a dive base you let them experience a normal set, and then you can introduce a system that at first glance is easier to use (no relevant buoyancy change after initial adjustment), but dear sir, it's advanced technology so please pay a premium.

It will be discover scuba stuff, but without the instructor hanging on the tank maintaining your buoyancy, but it will grow out of that. I like the manual shift analogy. Let's say you get people doing a discover scuba on this system and then an OW. They will come back next year for their holiday splash to the same dive-op because the competing dive-ops can't provide the system and these divers haven't learned basic buoyance (learned to manually shift).

If it technically works, and the cost of ownership (for a diveop) is reasonable, I can see this become a success in the not so niche holiday dive market.

 

[Angelo Farina]

Buoyancy is a problem for new inexperienced divers if you give them a bulky BCD and you overweight them. So they need to balance the overweight with a large amount of air in the BCD; which changes volume (and hence buoyancy) with depth.
When I taught diving to my children, they were 5 years old. At that age it is much better do not give them any BCD. And just a "shorty" exposure suit and a small 5 liters steel air tank. With proper weighting (that is, with no additional weights), they were almost perfectly neutral, and in a couple of dives they easily learned how to adjust finely the buoyancy using their (small) lungs.
I gave them a BCD only when they were 12 y.o., and they had to perform the required skills for getting OW and AOW certified... So each of them di make something as 100+ dives WITHOUT BCD, increasing progressively (over years) depth and dive time up to 30 minutes at 15 meters..
All this buoyancy problem is really "made up" by the usage of a lot of expensive and unnecessary equipment (additional weights, BCD, complete exposure suit). Diving "light", with just a minimal exposure suit, no BCD, a small tank and proper weighting removes the problem entirely, and allows for limited-depth, low risk, very "soft" and pleasant diving. Let's call it "old school diving", as it was in the sixties...
And, if more buoyancy is needed for unexpected reasons (like the need of ascending with something very heavy found on the sea bottom), a simple plastic "shopper" bag filled with air is the "el cheapo" solution, not taking much space in your equipment.

 

[ginti]

Buoyancy is a problem for new inexperienced divers if you give them a bulky BCD and you overweight them. So they need to balance the overweight with a large amount of air in the BCD; which changes volume (and hence buoyancy) with depth.
When I taught diving to my children, they were 5 years old. At that age it is much better do not give them any BCD. And just a "shorty" exposure suit and a small 5 liters steel air tank. With proper weighting (that is, with no additional weights), they were almost perfectly neutral, and in a couple of dives they easily learned how to adjust finely the buoyancy using their (small) lungs.
I gave them a BCD only when they were 12 y.o., and they had to perform the required skills for getting OW and AOW certified... So each of them di make something as 100+ dives WITHOUT BCD, increasing progressively (over years) depth and dive time up to 30 minutes at 15 meters..
All this buoyancy problem is really "made up" by the usage of a lot of expensive and unnecessary equipment (additional weights, BCD, complete exposure suit). Diving "light", with just a minimal exposure suit, no BCD, a small tank and proper weighting removes the problem entirely, and allows for limited-depth, low risk, very "soft" and pleasant diving. Let's call it "old school diving", as it was in the sixties...
And, if more buoyancy is needed for unexpected reasons (like the need of ascending with something very heavy found on the sea bottom), a simple plastic "shopper" bag filled with air is the "el cheapo" solution, not taking much space in your equipment.

Isn't there a risk of lung over-expansion? I can imagine that, if they control the buoyancy only with their lungs, they might hold their breath sometimes, and if they make a mistake, they could surface at the same time... Did you see this problem at that time? How did you solve it?

 

[Wibble]

Does that magic box also counter differences from your wetsuit compression?

What about the weight of the gas consumed?

How does it calibrate itself for someone overweighted? If using a BCD, how does it counteract volume changes with changes in pressure from depth.

Is it computer controlled. Hopefully Alexa integrated with a (cr)app on your phone.

 

[beester]

Buoyancy is a problem for new inexperienced divers if you give them a bulky BCD and you overweight them. So they need to balance the overweight with a large amount of air in the BCD; which changes volume (and hence buoyancy) with depth.
When I taught diving to my children, they were 5 years old. At that age it is much better do not give them any BCD. And just a "shorty" exposure suit and a small 5 liters steel air tank. With proper weighting (that is, with no additional weights), they were almost perfectly neutral, and in a couple of dives they easily learned how to adjust finely the buoyancy using their (small) lungs.
I gave them a BCD only when they were 12 y.o., and they had to perform the required skills for getting OW and AOW certified... So each of them di make something as 100+ dives WITHOUT BCD, increasing progressively (over years) depth and dive time up to 30 minutes at 15 meters..
All this buoyancy problem is really "made up" by the usage of a lot of expensive and unnecessary equipment (additional weights, BCD, complete exposure suit). Diving "light", with just a minimal exposure suit, no BCD, a small tank and proper weighting removes the problem entirely, and allows for limited-depth, low risk, very "soft" and pleasant diving. Let's call it "old school diving", as it was in the sixties...
And, if more buoyancy is needed for unexpected reasons (like the need of ascending with something very heavy found on the sea bottom), a simple plastic "shopper" bag filled with air is the "el cheapo" solution, not taking much space in your equipment.

It is clear that you learned to dive or taught your children to dive in the relative balmy mediterranean waters, hence minimal exposure protection. Try to do that in North Sea or our local Schelde estuary. I learned to dive as well without a bcd (people were using fenzy's as bcd's at that time), but if you are using a 7mm or double 7mm wetsuit I can assure you even as a child you need lead to go under and some way to get up again ;-)

 

[Angelo Farina]

It is clear that you learned to dive or taught your children to dive in the relative balmy mediterranean waters, hence minimal exposure protection. Try to do that in North Sea or our local Schelde estuary. I learned to dive as well without a bcd (people were using fenzy's as bcd's at that time), but if you are using a 7mm or double 7mm wetsuit I can assure you even as a child you need lead to go under and some way to get up again ;-)

I am a father who takes care of my sons. I did not bring them underwater in the sea, at 5 years old, in less than favourable conditions: cristal clear water, no waves, no current, reasonable water temperature (>20°C), proper equipment, and two instructors (me and my wife, and she is certified for teaching to children above 3 years).
I am not crazy...
No way that my sons could be exposed to a risky environment.
I think that people should learn diving very progressively, starting "easy", in favourable environment and employing very minimal equipment.
And evolve slowly to more challenging environments and adding progressively more complex equipment and technologies.
Unfortunately the fast OW "one weekend" course, originally conceived for tropical resorts, has been applied out of context. So very inexperienced divers are training in cold water, with bad visibility and carrying heavy and complex equipment.
Of course they have problems controlling breathing, buoyancy, trim and kicking...
But the solution, for me, is not employing even more complex equipment, as the invention discussed here.
My idea is to start again from basics: first free body, then you add fins and mask, then you add the snorkel, and teach snorkeling. then you teach free diving, and only when the student can free dive, say, to 10 or 15 meters deep, you start training with a scuba tank. Still without suit and without BCD...
And finally you add also them...
It means many months, not a weekend of training.
For people living in cold weather, it could take years, not months, and a lot of this training will be done in a pool.

 

[beester]

The point is that you make a generalising comment (no need for lead) which is very specific to your local situation. There are other environment too

I was a bit older and first snorkel when I was 10... free diving out of the question in an environment with strong tidal currently and bad visibility but you could be sure I vould hold my breath from practising in swimming pools with the cmas club. The first time I dived i can tell you i was wearing a 7mm neoprene suit... because it was the minimum exposure protection possible. The point i make is your training needs to be specifici to your local environment it is not one way fits all.

 

[Wibble]

Less ignorance from the agency and its representatives would be a start. A raw newbie doing their first Open Water in a benign dive resort and being told that this training is applicable everywhere is utter nonsense.

Explicitly informing and reinforcing these know-nothing novice students that the training they’re being given is only applicable to those benign conditions in which they are being taught in and they need lots more training in whatever conditions are normal at home.

Set expectations early.

And "Advanced" is a ridiculous and deliberately misleading term.