Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[MichaelMc]

I think there not too many of you disagree that solo divers will need some sort of redundant supply, so, maybe its a good idea to stop discussing that to keep the focus. In this discussion, technical divers are over-represented, how can we conclude anything reasonable for rec divers if you do not take off your tech diver or solo diver hat?

I'm happy to not focus on solo or tech dives. Though not happy to forget skills and ways or mitigating risks learned there.

So let's look at some rec. dives:

With an adolescent or younger buddy: A decent pony lets me handle any gas emergency without stressing them or relying on their reaction under that pressure. Necessary? No. I could put them through all that, and likely get gas from them if needed, without them doing any kind of good job in the process. But a pony would be a much better plan. Instead of "make sure you save your uncle on the dive today".

With divers I know and trust as very solid: No not necessary. Though it adds an extra layer of ease when we're both redundant.

With unknown divers: Mmm. Well, which of the above two cases are they closer too? Can I know that before getting on the boat or in the water with them? Will I even know after a dive when things seemed to all go well, as they seem fine but are actually totally useless if something happens? A pony is not required... as I could still likely get air from them even if they are useless, but it would give me more peace of mind that I'm not rolling the dice on their reactions.

Having a decent pony simplifies my pre-dive pairing up process and the dive itself to "am I comfortable helping you at need" instead of "am I comfortable relying on you at need for gas right now". A modest cylinder at my side is a small price to pay for that simplification and reduced worry before and during the dive.

If every single rec diver in the world carried a pony/stage, would that affect fatality or general safety stats and in what way? Think of every rec diving boat you have been on, and try to imagine if everyone used a pony..
@Lorenzoid asked a good question. What are the thresholds/borders for recommending a pony; vis, depth, temp?

I think a better question is:
If every rec diver was a much better diver, would that affect fatality or general safety stats and in what way?

Everyone being much better divers would clearly make a difference. Yet I can't make all divers better. I can hedge my risk when I'm not sure how good the diver I'm with is, and I can handle the minimal pony complexity as I am a better diver.

 

[Lorenzoid]

So let's look at some rec. dives:

With an adolescent or younger buddy . . .
. . .
With unknown divers . . . .
.
Having a decent pony simplifies my pre-dive pairing up process and the dive itself to "am I comfortable helping you at need" instead of "am I comfortable relying on you at need for gas right now".

A minor point, or maybe semantics, but to me, that all sounds like you're diving solo in principle. As I have said before, although I don't practice it, I have nothing against solo diving, including the use of a pony as standard solo equipment. I'd just call it what I think it is. As I see it, if the plan is to go for your pony rather than a donation from a buddy, you're solo diving.

You could instead ask:
Imaging if every rec diver was a much better diver, would that affect fatality or general safety stats and in what way?

We can imagine and we can strive to help others want to become better divers. Conversations like this one are a start. Diving in a way that might make us look to others like role models might help, too. I like the feeling when after a dive on a boat someone tells me and my buddy they were amazed at how we stuck together and were always looking out for each other. It's kind of sad they're amazed we're simply adhering to what we were all taught. Maybe if enough people see that, they will begin to believe the buddy system need not be declared dead.

 

[MichaelMc]

A minor point, or maybe semantics, but to me, that all sounds like you're diving solo in principle.

I do not think taking responsibility for a junior aged diver as your buddy, yet not relying on them, would be called solo diving. Except if done by the most uncaring and irresponsible of adults who then ignore that buddy. (Not that I am calling you that.)

I'm diving self-reliant on gas until I know I can trust you enough to not have my own backup.

And to your earlier point, how would I know when that is? Might it be easier to just be consistent and always carry a pony as my standardized gear? How well can I evaluate the dive you beforehand?

When I'm solo diving, I'm not paying attention to you. But in the above, you are my buddy so I am paying attention to you, I'm just not relying on you for my backup gas. Yes, I'll go to the backup gas I carry first. But I'm still ready to give you gas as well.

I like the feeling when after a dive on a boat someone tells me and my buddy they were amazed at how we stuck together and were always looking out for each other.

I agree. And I believe I am that close to my buddy and that attentive. But if they are new to me, I still want my pony on me.

(And yes, in my normal diving I'm actually solo on most dives. Just me in that patch of ocean and shore. But I've also shadowed students to keep them safe, so I know how to watch over others but not rely on them, which is self-reliant not solo.)

 

[Lorenzoid]

Take the following for the hair-splitting it is.

I'm diving self-reliant on gas until I know I can trust you enough to not have my own backup.

As I see it, self-reliant diving is self-reliant diving. The reason doesn't matter.

And to your earlier point, how would I know when that is? Might it be easier to just be consistent and almost always carry a pony as my standardized gear? How well can I evaluate the dive you beforehand?

Exactly. I also pondered somewhere upthread whether the diving world might have been a less confusing and contentious place if all agencies simply taught a pony as standard OW gear.

I do not think taking responsibility over an adolescent diver as your body, yet not relying on them, would be called solo diving. Except for the most uncaring, and irresponsible of adults.

I don't see any inconsistency in a self-reliant diver helping someone else, though it's not generally what someone means when he says he's diving "solo." I have seen the terms solo and self-reliant used interchangeably, and I like that definition. A diver could be self-reliant and help others if needed. "Solo" sounds kind of selfish and antisocial anyway.

When I'm solo diving, I'm not paying any attention to you. . . .

Sounds like you make a distinction between "solo" and "self-reliant." We can all define things as we wish so long as we know what each other is talking about.

Have a good weekend. Safe diving.

 

[MichaelMc]

Sounds like you make a distinction between "solo" and "self-reliant."

Setting aside the terms used, I think several different relationships can exist between divers in terms of safety. Only one of which is symmetric, two are asymmetric, and one has only one diver involved.

A) Instructor and new student: student's safety is very dependent on instructor. Instructor's safety is not very dependent on student (if the instructor is cautious in where they take the student). An asymmetric relationship.

B) Two divers with single tanks: Each dependent on the other for help in various incidents, such as gas problems. A symmetric relationship. Which may on may not be justified in terms of the assistance actually available.

C) One experienced diver with a twin set, sidemount, or pony, trained to handle most emergencies and to avoid things that look risky. No relationship in the water. (The diver is all by themself in the water.)

D) The above experienced diver with redundant gas and training, but diving with a new or unknown diver and watching over them carefully. An asymmetric relationship, somewhat like that of the instructor and new student. (The experienced diver does not need to rely on the inexperienced or unknown one.)

Moving to D -- asymmetric dependence -- does not imply that you have created C -- all alone. These are very different relationships, so not confusing the two is important.

The experienced diver putting away their twinset, sidemount, or pony just because they are diving with a diver who does not have that gear seems to me silly, and possibly reckless.

In terms of the terms:

Padi tagged a class 'self-reliant' which they intend to train one to dive alone. Yet the words just mean lack of (at least some) need in one direction. They do not require nor imply lack of capability or responsibility to provide assistance in the other direction.

I think the words solo and self-reliant capture the distinction of all alone vs lack of a symmetric dependency.
As an example, parents may be self-reliant, but they are not solo with respect to their children; adults may be self-reliant, but they are not solo with respect to children with them.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I think the words solo and self-reliant capture the distinction of all alone vs lack of a symmetric dependency.
As an example, parents may be self reliant, but they are not solo with respect to their children; adults may be self-reliant, but they are not solo with respect to children with them.

What about the word"Independent" (what SSI uses for their course. I forgot what IANTD calls theirs)

 

[MichaelMc]

What about the word"Independent" (what SSI uses for their course. I forgot what IANTD calls theirs)

IANTD is self-sufficient.
As I understand it was not intended for diving intentionally alone. Kind of reinforcing that alone is not what those words mean.

CMAS is self-rescue.
Who's description uses the term 'self-reliant'.
"CMAS training programmes and ethos are based on the “Buddy” system of diving. CMAS, in offering Self-Rescue diver training, accepts the real-world fact that divers may, on occasions, become separated from their dive partner and, thus seeks to provide candidates with the knowledge, self- reliant diver skills and techniques to protect themselves in such events.

....

1. and a yellow emergency DSMB with dive-reel and line, such that candidates can act alone, if inadvertently separated from their dive buddy. These are to be used to help in a safe and controlled ascent.

....

ALL Self-Rescue divers
WILL carry, on ALL dives, back-up equipment for all fundamental activities including:

1. 6.1.1 Breathing equipment suitable to extricate the diver in the event that the primary breathing
   system failure of any kind – this excludes octopus rigs.

"

Self-Rescue Diver Training Programme

www.cmas.org

This is not even for planning to dive alone. This is in case you get separated from your buddy, as a self-rescue capable diver.

 

[Blackcrusader]

Been an interesting discussion though. That sounds like gas planning. It doesn't take much to do, especially with MultiDeco or suchlike. After a few dives, you've got a template in your head as what the plan is.

AIUI, the Shearwater / Suunto planners only give you the dive profile, they don't calculate your gas requirements.

I am not sure if you own a shearwater but they do gas planning. You will also have a screen showing liters required to end of bottom time, liters used to ascend to deco stop or safety stop if non deco dive and total liters required for entire dive.

 

[Blackcrusader]

I can't match Wibble's thorough reply to your well-thought-out post, but for me, gas planning a multilevel rec/sport dive can be as simple as memorizing a few pairs of numbers. If my buddy and I are at X depth, I had better see at least Y on my SPG or else I need to ascend a bit. We know we would always have enough gas to surface while sharing gas in an out-of-gas emergency.

I would say that I am not inclined to do it as I have good gas consumption. I do gas plans on my shearwater but that is really using a sac rate 50% above my normal sac rate and then seeing on the dive what bar I start and finish with, tank size, and then work out how many liters of air used and my actual sac rate for the dive. If I am planning a rock bottom at 25m depth for 25 minutes I would normally use 50 bar of gas an on AL 80. My dive buddy may use more. One of my dive regular buddies comes close to me on gas consumption. Thing is on recreational dive unless there is a failure of equipment ( which I have not ever had but a buddy has ) I do monitor my dive my own and my buddy's gas consumption on a dive. This is because I am often with instabuddies and they can see I use far less gas than they do. I will also bring them shallower to make sure they can get an hours dive time in.

Lot's of buddies will ask me why I am better on air and I reply and mostly it is because they chase the marine life and move around a lot or don't have great buoyancy control.

 

[Blackcrusader]

I only know the Shearwater planning in tech mode, but in tech mode the planner does calculate gas requirements based on your inputted SAC/RMV.

All my dives are done in the OC Tec mode on my Shearwater. I like all the information I can have on screen.