DIR- GUE Reflections on Fundamentals

[vinsanity]

I am not sure I would have gone through GUE if I knew there was a time limit, I am already annoyed enough about the expiring certification cards--Nothing like seeing a GUE Tech 2/Cave 2 instructor get turned away from Ginnie because his card "expired".

Expiring? I'm just considering getting in to GUE and had not heard about this. What's the expiration on GUE certs and what is needed to renew them?

(FYI: My end goal is Tech 1)

 

[loosenit2]

There is a bunch here that is incorrect. The 4 ratings are tech pas, rec pass, provisional, and fail. Fail means you are completely unsafe in diving and essentially unreachable within GUE framework----there are almost none of these and for all intensive purposes the provision is the fail aka 'did not pass'

The only rating that has the six month window is the provisional. There is no official tech pass provisional and even if there was it would still be a pass (rec pass at least) and not subject to the 6 month rule.

Appreciate on the clarification on provisional vs tech pass provisional, getting language right matters; but i'm not sure how it changes things. If you get a provisional you have to either come back for a skills evaluation within 6 months or retake the course correct? Unless your provisional changes to a rec pass? If you get a rec pass you have to either come back for a tech upgrade (I assume there is some cost for that depending on the instructor; plus having to find another student to do it with you) or retake the course correct? The only change to what I said is that if you get a rec pass there is no 6 month time limit on coming back, I assume your fundies result changes to a rec pass and you have to either retake the course or get a tech upgrade.

There are a threads detailing the history of fundies on this site. Bottom line, the method of fundies you describe with it being more of a checkout dive/workshop was the initial iteration of the course. It was ultimately not successful--too high a failure rate, failed in its goal of producing divers capable of working, too much effort with limited results.

The 4 day course was a great improvement in creating successful outcomes. The current iteration of Part 1 and Part 2 addressed issues of too much too soon, and time constraints of people needing to take time off of work and I don't see how GUE could make the course any more available and flexible without compromising the stated mission.

I wonder if the "high failure rates" using the early iteration method can be attributed to the training methodology or the mindset of the instructors at the time. GUE has a reputation of being extremely harsh gatekeepers, some would say fanatical. I have heard they are working very hard in the last several years to change the reputation and reinvent themselves, I have heard that from GUE instructors so it seems reasonable to believe it is true. Addressing failure is as much about figuring out why something happened as fixing it, so you are not fixing the wrong problems.

 

[CptTightPants21]

Expiring? I'm just considering getting in to GUE and had not heard about this. What's the expiration on GUE certs and what is needed to renew them?

(FYI: My end goal is Tech 1)

Technically a GUE cert is valid for three years. Renewal is on the honor system and requires going online and stating that you have conducted 25 dives over the past three years at the specific cert and paying a nominal renewal fee to get a new card shipped to you (I think it is like $40, I never actually done it). Fundies is 25 dives over three years, Tech 1 is 25 deco dives over three years, etc. Doing 25 deco dives over three years would satisfy requirements for both.

The words "Renew By MM/YY" are on the card, but in my experience they mean very little in the real world. Just about all my cards are expired (especially the fundies) and I have not had an issue. I am sure some people here who have been certified by GUE for a decade or more will have more relevant information.

I wouldn't allow this to play a part in deciding if you want to down the GUE cert. Diving at this level enough, its not looked at and there are methods around it. It's more of a minor inconvenience - one that I also have to put up with with my PSI VIP certification.

Appreciate on the clarification on provisional vs tech pass provisional, getting language right matters; but i'm not sure how it changes things. If you get a provisional you have to either come back for a skills evaluation within 6 months or retake the course correct? Unless your provisional changes to a rec pass? If you get a rec pass you have to either come back for a tech upgrade (I assume there is some cost for that depending on the instructor; plus having to find another student to do it with you) or retake the course correct? The only change to what I said is that if you get a rec pass there is no 6 month time limit on coming back, I assume your fundies result changes to a rec pass and you have to either retake the course or get a tech upgrade.

If you get a provisional you have to either come back for a skills evaluation within 6 months or retake the course. If you get a rec pass there is no retaking the course, you passed and you can do a tech upgrade if you wish. The upgrade is typically half a day or one full day. Some instructors might charge a small fee (~$100), most will let do it for free if you are joining in for a day of an already scheduled class. You also don't need to find a buddy. The instructor can do the evaluation by himself or he will have a local friend play buddy for you.

I wonder if the "high failure rates" using the early iteration method can be attributed to the training methodology or the mindset of the instructors at the time. GUE has a reputation of being extremely harsh gatekeepers, some would say fanatical. I have heard they are working very hard in the last several years to change the reputation and reinvent themselves, I have heard that from GUE instructors so it seems reasonable to believe it is true. Addressing failure is as much about figuring out why something happened as fixing it, so you are not fixing the wrong problems.

The high failure rates are because it takes legitimate skill to earn a tech pass. Even today only 20-30% of students will earn a tech pass on the first attempt. Using the earlier iteration that is a 70-80% failure rate.

Using the previous thought process mentioned above, one day for the initial evaluation, one day for classroom and methodology instruction-ok. What if student is part of the 70-80%?

Let's call it one day for in water-practice and tune up, plus one day for the revaluation.

One day for the initial evaluation, one day for classroom and methodology instruction, one day for in water-practice and tune up, plus one day for the revaluation. It almost sounds like a course......like a four day fundies course


There has been a large influx on new GUE instructors. Just as scuba has mellowed out since the 80-90s so to has the GUE instructor ranks and a student can now choose from a variety of personality types, from the best friend type to the hardnose drill instructor--all of which is a good thing.

 

[O-ring]

It's $30 every 3 years. Been doing it since 2003. Back then we used to have to submit logs as well, but like you said, now it is done on the honor system.

 

[DiveDay]

Question: If someone feels like they aren't ready yet and need more time to develop the necessary skills then why not start with GUE Rec 1?

For what it's worth Rec 1 is really hard to find, at least here. On paper it makes sense but its target audience just doesn't really exist in my opinion. People who are new to diving aren't gonna sign up to an expensive week long bootcamp, they'll take a $299 Open Water three day class somewhere else. One of the local instructors here can in theory teach Rec 1 but I don't think he ever does.

I also noticed new GUE Instructors are now typically only certified to teach Fundies + Drysuit/Doubles Primers, so I think it's extra work to teach Rec 1 that's just not worth it for most instructors. I did notice some changes to instructor requirements, it looked like you can now teach Rec 1 (and only Rec 1) with only a Fundies Tech pass which is interesting. Perhaps there will be a new set of Rec-only instructors, but I kind of doubt it.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

If fundies is too much for people who had poor OW classes, then just doing workshops with a fundies instructor is another option.

Start with weighting and controlled ascents and descents without task loading. Then move into finning or do things in the order you want. Then everything proceeds at your pace.

 

[rddvet]

Just about all my cards are expired (especially the fundies) and I have not had an issue. I.

and you’ve survived this long? You’re playing with fire

 

[wnissen]

Just wanted to say thanks to OP for posting. This is a markedly more thoughtful take, evaluating strengths and weaknesses as well as looking deeper (no pun intended) into the reasons why things are the way they are. I think there's a significant survivor bias as training gets more demanding. Few people are jazzed to put up a thread right after they spent a week, a lot of money, and a ton of effort and didn't get the pass they were looking for. The GUE priorities are clear when you're doing valve drills but not using the flashlights. Fundamentals seems more like pre-calculus is to calculus. There's a lot of stuff you do in pre-calc that is pure symbol manipulation with no purpose whatsoever until you get to calculus. GUE sounds like a great place to learn how to do "pre-tech" dives, in a team, with standardized equipment. If your goals involve only solidly recreational dives, possibly with instabuddies, in your own choice of equipment, it may not suit your needs.

 

[AJ]

GUE sounds like a great place to learn how to do "pre-tech" dives, in a team, with standardized equipment.

Yep, it's one of the strong points of GUE. Standardized team and equipment makes things easier.

If your goals involve only solidly recreational dives, possibly with instabuddies, in your own choice of equipment, it may not suit your needs.

Fundies aims to make you better diver. A good diver can do dives with any buddy with his/her own gear. I improved my diving skills with Fundies, which makes me a better buddy also for non GUE trained divers. No problem here, to me it was worth it.

 

[beester]

Appreciate on the clarification on provisional vs tech pass provisional, getting language right matters; but i'm not sure how it changes things. If you get a provisional you have to either come back for a skills evaluation within 6 months or retake the course correct? Unless your provisional changes to a rec pass? If you get a rec pass you have to either come back for a tech upgrade

Maybe this topic is already dead, but let me reply.

A provision doesn't mean you need to redo all the skill work. It could be that they give you a provisional on just backkicks and all other elements of the evaluation are already on rec pass level. This would mean that you just have to make an appointment with your instructor within your 6 months and just show your backkick again in 1 dive.

Of course it can happen that there are multiple skills that need to be improved upon.

In a rec to tec pass upgrade you probably will have to spend a full day (1 or 2 dives) to show all the skills again at the "tec pass" level. Typically people who come back for the tech pass will do so quite fast without a time limit, because they are motivated (ie they want the tech pass to advance into the technical certifications).

You are correct that if you don't reevaluate your provisional within 6 months that you'll forfeit a rec or tec certification, and will have to redo the class.

By the way, this system also exists in the technical certificates. I've seen C1 students been given a provisional, or for example T1 students a REC3 pass with the instruction to come back in a couple of months/full year to have their skills reevaluated and the REC3 upgraded to T1.

On the classes I took (with the exception of C2 and T2) we always had someone in the team who didn't pass the class and got a provisional or a lower certification and had return for additional evaluation.

All in all I like the system. I like the didactics behind them. It clearly works, producing divers which at every certificate post course are immediately ready to do the dives they practiced to do, it produces in general good buddies/team mates.

I don't like the prolifiration of new courses/certificates, and the requirements of certain certs being necessary to be able to participate in some project work. But hey, if yout know people and talk to the project organisers there's always ways to shuffle this a bit.

All in all I'm still drinking the koolaid ;-)