Non PADI Card Rejected?

[Al Mialkovsky]

I went into a shop in Maui in October 2003 to sign up for a charter to Molokini. When the owner asked for my C-card, I pulled out my YMCA SLAM card. He said they didn't accept those. So I showed him my NAUI DM card. He looked at me and said they only accept PADI cards.

So I walked down the street and signed up on a similar charter with his competitor.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

We had a guy come back from Mexico who wanted to get one of our cards since his Y card was denied at some flakey outfit down there. Which shop in Maui would deny your Y card?

 

[Bretagne]

Yes -- however, incidentially, taking a PADI RD and converting to the "equivalent" FFESSM-level is no easy thing. One needs a theory-module with written exam -- plus a number of OW dives (8, at least, but I can't remember the exact standards) in the deep end (40 m or so) -- where you repeat all the OW skills (mask clearing and so on) -- with an instructor. Effectively, doing any FFESSM-level based on a PADI cert is quite complicated, and amounts mostly to starting from scratch.

This might, in theory, not be true -- but in reality it is. It's easier & cheaper to just enroll in an FFESSM-course as if you were not trained at all, than it is to invoke one of the "equivalence" mechanisms.

I do not contest, conversion is cleary easier for the two first levels.

Incidentially, a PADI OWD is supposed to be autonomous. In an FFESSM-structure, he's not.....

It is why I said "considered as". As you said "supposed to be"
I was not discussing difference in formation quality, just a formal equivalence which allows all PADI certified divers to dive, but not systematically as they wish. Now I have dived in autonomy with PADI divers, so it is not impossible, it just requires an intelligent shop owner

BEES1/MF1/N4, yes -- but also for N2+initiateur (roughly "assistant assistant instructor"), where some of the same exercises are repeated (but shallower, where the preasure-changes are more pronounced and the risk of accidents is higher).

But perhaps we're now entering territory which is no longer relevant for this discussion?

It is not relevant, but for N2+initiateur you are wrong. (as rescue part of the exam is done without air tank, apnea only, no risk of lung expansion; training involves rescue with tank, but with neutral flottability so no overdue effort)

 

[Bubble Blower 479]

I went into a shop in Maui in October 2003 to sign up for a charter to Molokini. When the owner asked for my C-card, I pulled out my YMCA SLAM card. He said they didn't accept those. So I showed him my NAUI DM card. He looked at me and said they only accept PADI cards.

So I walked down the street and signed up on a similar charter with his competitor.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Did the shop give a reason for only PADI cards? I sure didn't expect a US operation to want to chase away business.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

You just have to think this guy doesn't work there any longer....

 

[voop]

I do not contest, conversion is cleary easier for the two first levels.

...it just requires an intelligent shop owner

Ohh boy, I am sure that the abovementioned statement will make some people jump in their seats Most people who've had a shop may think, that the only intelligent shop-owner is a guy who sells his shop

It is not relevant, but for N2+initiateur you are wrong. (as rescue part of the exam is done without air tank, apnea only, no risk of lung expansion; training involves rescue with tank, but with neutral flottability so no overdue effort)

See, this is interresting, and thanks for the correction.

Granted, since I do not teach for FFESSM (I don't like teaching things which may kill my students -- just as a general principle), I have not kept up to date with their standards and procedures. However I do remember vividly having to do the abovementioned exercise ("remonte sur palme" / rescue w. scuba) way back when I did N2/init. Perhaps it was the "old formula"? Or perhaps I just had an instructor/evaluator who was going beyond what was required?

In any event, Bretagne, thanks for the correction! I am glad that I was wrong and that it ain't required.

Back on track: when I go diving somewhere in France, I now only show a non-french C-card to the shop. If they start saying "uhh, ehh, you cannot dive without a French level", I know that this isn't a center I want to give my business to since they care more about burocracy than about diving.

If on the other hand the center says "Sure, why don't you tag along on this shallow afternoon-dive, and then we'll talk afterwards for tomorrow", I know that they care about seeing me in the water more than about the piece of plastic I carry. And that's the kind of center I'll consider patronaging.

Incidentially, when I go diving outside of France, I do the opposite: show my ANMP-card -- which is probably mostly unknown -- and observe the response. Are they more interrested in checking if I can actually dive -- or in selling me a "conversion course"?

Bretagne, thanks again. Everyone else: apologiez for hi-jacking the thread.

 

[voop]

A brief remark about the compulsory BEES in France:
it is a diploma which is compulsory to be allowed to teach any sport for money. There exists BEES for basket ball, for roller skating, for sailing,... there is a common part that you get once for all the sports, and a specific part. So it is not specifically to reject PADI instructors
What is more disputable, is that even as benevolent teacher, PADI instructors are not allowed to teach if they do not have another recognised instructor rating (there are some other than BEES for benevolent teaching).

Just for completeness, that is not completely clear-cut. There have been instructors taken to court for teaching PADI courses without a "recognized instructor rating" in France, where the instructor won. However French law is not presedence-based (as e.g. in the US), so it is on a case-by-case basis. There are some new developments happening which may change things in the future, however. These new european standards are one of those.

For the record, NO, I am not a lawyer....

Bretagne, can you imagine having this discussion on plongeur.com?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

We had a guy come back from Mexico who wanted to get one of our cards since his Y card was denied at some flakey outfit down there. Which shop in Maui would deny your Y card?

Did the shop give a reason for only PADI cards? I sure didn't expect a US operation to want to chase away business.

It was a shop in Kihei called "The Green Turtle" or some such ... we only chose it because of location (it was right next to our condo). We ended up going to B&B, which was an excellent operation.

He didn't give a reason ... just that they only accept PADI cards.

I figure in Maui, dive shops can afford to chase away business ... since there's so much of it. On the other hand, dive shops are on every street corner ... so it's no big whoop to find one that suits your fancy.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Bretagne]

Bretagne, can you imagine having this discussion on plongeur.com?

Yes, very easily. Forumers there are not necessarily supporters of "FFESSM only". But discussion can (and has) become hot .

There have been instructors taken to court for teaching PADI courses without a "recognized instructor rating" in France, where the instructor won

I would be interested in the details of these cases.

Remark: it is not because I try to understand the logic guiding our diving laws that I agree with them .

 

[chrisch]

We dive in France from time to time. The PADI RD is normally recognised (never had a problem) and OK for 40m.

The insistance of the French government that you must have an FFESSM "licence" is designed to put off the casual diver. Pretty stupid for a country that makes so much money out of tourism.

That's governments for you.

Chris

 

[6Gill]

Do they also teach ya how to wave that white flag too?



Just....kidding ;-P