Folded Knees

[Jaan]

Wish more would follow your lead …. Lots of silt kickers out there ;(

 

[Divin'Papaw]

Wish more would follow your lead …. Lots of silt kickers out there ;(

A plethora

 

[MichaelMc]

Back on the boat, the DM came over to give me some helpful tips. He had noticed my posture while diving and offered to help me get my feet down.

The DM offering suggestions for a more unbalanced weight distribution to take you out of easy horizontal, or any orientation, trim is wild.

I think I'd say: I thought with my weight higher up I would not yo-yo up and down and kick up the bottom, because my kicks are in the direction I want to push instead of downward. And see what their response was. If they looked flustered instead of thoughtful, then I'd say: I'm good but thank you.

Not "if you see something, say something" but "if asked, say something."

 

[Colliam7]

As a rec diver, my trim is better with my entire body on a straight line, my fins, calfs, thighs, aligned. I am more efficient streamlined doing flutter, frog kick rather folding my knees. And frog kick does not disturb the silt. I even do reverse without folding my knees. What is the point of folding knees as a rec diver?

This discussion boils down to: What is comfortable for you, and is environmentally friendly? Do what is comfortable and do what is low impact on everything around you. There is not a 'one and only one' right way for all. As The Chairman regularly points out, we are best served with a 'Dive and let dive' approach.

For me, the bent knee position is best, from the perspective of a) comfort, b) trim and c) efficiency of propulsion. I seldom need to swim fast for any length of time. When I frog kick I use my thigh muscles to some extent. When I do the modified flutter I do not use them quite so much, but they nonetheless play a role. For me, it isn't a matter of which muscle group is more powerful, rather which is easiest / most comfortable to use to provide the propulsion I need. I use a modifed frog and a modified flutter 95% of the time, and I am most confortable when I am horizontal and my knees are bent upoward. It isn't a matter of whether I am engaged in recreational or technical diving. I dive the same way (with regard to leg position and propulsion) whether I am in a 1mm wetsuit in warm Caribbean water with a single AL80, or in a drysuit with double steels and a couple of deco bottles.

Ultimately, you should dive in the configuration that is most comfortable for you. I will dive with my feet up, and my knees bent - 75 to 90 degrees. That is what is most comfortable for me, and the position in which I achieve my desired horizontal trim. You should dive in whatever position is most comfortable and most efficient for you.

 

[Ayisha]

But you do agree that in a 90° calves position, you use your ankles and your calves but not so much your thighs which are the most powerful parts of your legs, right? I am a lazy diver so I am a big fan of kick and glide. Not so much glide with the cave diver position and pretty much drag.

Several people have answered, and you can see in the videos that all parts of the leg are used in different phases. Since the knees don't drop, it isn't as obvious.

I am also a lazy diver. Slow, relaxed, effortless, watching everything, that's a good dive. I find the modified frog kick very relaxed, with an effortless kick and nice long glide.

I don't think there's a lot of drag. In the videos above, notice that their fins are within the slipstream of their head/tank/body. No drag.

You mentioned that you already took video and discovered that you looked different from what you saw on videos. Why not post that one?

I'll ask again what I asked in my first post:

Unless you're in a course that you want to be in and an instructor is asking you to bend your knees to achieve the goal of that lesson, what does it matter what you or others do?

 

[Dody]

Several people have answered, and you can see in the videos that all parts of the leg are used in different phases. Since the knees don't drop, it isn't as obvious.

I am also a lazy diver. Slow, relaxed, effortless, watching everything, that's a good dive. I find the modified frog kick very relaxed, with an effortless kick and nice long glide.

I don't think there's a lot of drag. In the videos above, notice that their fins are within the slipstream of their head/tank/body. No drag.

You mentioned that you already took video and discovered that you looked different from what you saw on videos. Why not post that one?

I'll ask again what I asked in my first post:

Because this is not my camera and I am still waiting for my friend to bring the cable so that I can upload the files on my laptop.

 

[Blackcrusader]

Because this is not my camera and I am still waiting for my friend to bring the cable so that I can upload the files on my laptop.

We are patient we can wait and see. Sometimes this position is not good as I have seen divers with 90 degree and fins up disturb soft corals and create damage and silt to overhead environments. You may be comfortable with your legs at 45 degrees for diving. Choose what is comfortable for you.

 

[Julius SCHMIDT]

I know a guy that gets some of his wet suits made with 4inches taken out of the back of the knees and three inches out of the elbows, something like racing leathers

 

[The Chairman]

Often, the frog kick is not intuitive to divers. They try it for a few minutes and then give up because they want to go fast. If I were to give one hint as to how to maximize your thrust and efficiency, it would be to pay attention to your big toe and the bottom of the big toe at that. You tend to use the top of your foot for propulsion when it comes to a flutter kick. The more pressure you feel on the top of your foot on the downstroke, the more thrust you are creating. For the few students who like to bicycle kick, getting them to visualize kicking a soccer ball helps immensely. When it comes to the frog kick though, you should be feeling the pressure on the bottom tips of your toes and especially your big toe. As someone said, you're trying to clap the bottoms of your feet together during the power stroke. Of course during the "cocking stage", you should feel just a tiny bit of pressure on the outer side of your foot if you're feathering your fins correctly. If you're going slow enough, you won't feel pressure anywhere as you get ready for the thrust stroke, but new divers tend to kick way too quickly. Before I get in the water with a student, we sit on a bench side by side and practice each foot so they can get an idea of the mechanics involved. Once they get the individual feet mostly right, we do both together. This way they can see how they keep the fin tips parallel to the bottom during the cocking part, and that you need to turn your calves and ankles during the power portion. I will often use my hands to mimic water pressure on the fins if it appears that they need that tactile feedback on the bench.

All that said, you really have to commit to the frog kick for a while to really get the hang of it, and then you'll never lose it. Even if you feel inept, just keep kicking and trying to figure out how to get woer through the bottom tips of your toes.

 

[Colliam7]

Often, the frog kick is not intuitive to divers. They try it for a few minutes and then give up because they want to go fast. . . . . . . When it comes to the frog kick though, you should be feeling the pressure on the bottom tips of your toes and especially your big toe. . . . . you really have to commit to the frog kick for a while to really get the hang of it, and then you'll never lose it.

Pete, a great way to explain it to a diver who is trying to unerstand the frog kick!