Classes to be a great well rounded diver?

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For dive courses, OW,AOW and then rescue/first aid, would be the minimum.
Then dive dive dive. In the last year with a 30 day surface interval due to bad weather and a 120 day SI due to lockdown I will be over 200 dives. .

I have been diving in the Philippines as a recreational diver doing 150 - over 200 dives a year until this year. I usually work for 6 weeks then dive for 2 weeks or more. I often do 35 - 45 dives each trip usually 3 - 4 dives a day for 12 - 14 days back to back.

Very few divers can do that number a dives a year but it certainly keeps your skills up.
 
Please understand a couple of things:

Professional divers (DMs, Assistant Instructors, and Instructors) are not the pinnacle of the diving experience. That should not even be looked at as the pinnacle of the training pipeline.

Being an instructor doesn't make one a good diver...being a good diver makes one a good diver.

The standards for becoming an industry professional are relatively low, and the only thing required to maintain the credential is to pay professional dues and have professional liability insurance.

While specific skills for divers is standardized, the required quality of those skills is up to individual instructors...who may not be good divers to begin with.

There seems to be a prevailing thought that diver education is required through certification classes. While some of these classes can be an enriching experience most of them are not necessary.

I know divers that know quite a lot about Nitrox but don't have a Nitrox cert card because they have no intention of diving enriched air. And I know plenty of divers who have a Nitrox card who couldn't tell you anything about it...they learned just enough to pass the written exam to obtain the card and then brain dumped the info and couldn't care less...most of them have never and will never use nitrox outside of their nitrox cert dives, and they only had nitrox cert dives because they went through NAUI instead of PADI or SSI, etc.

In real life, nobody cares if you have advanced certifications, specialties, etc unless you need something specific for the type of diving you want to do, such as penetrating caves/wrecks, obtaining fills other than standard air, etc.

If you want to be a good photographer in the water, then learn about how to use a camera and compose shots....then practice by taking lots of photographs. As longtime photography hobbyist, it seems like the advent of affordable digital DSLR cameras in the past decade or so has led folks to believe they are "professional" photographers. I have come across quite a few people who have invested a ton in lighting equipment, backdrops, flashes, etc, and have printed out business cards that insinuate they are professional photographers...they are basically only mimicking what they saw the last time they sat in a sears portrait studio...they often don't know the first thing about composition, white balance, focal length, etc...and to be honest, neither do their customers, and the customers don't really care.........

..........The same is true for a lot of "dive professionals"...the average person engaging in diving training does not know enough to know that the "professional" overseeing their training doesn't really have a honed skill set or that their knowledge doesn't really go that deep (no pun intended)....it is questionable whether the average diver really cares about this. The major certifying agencies aren't bothered by it...as one can be certified to instruct and never be evaluated again on ones fitness to keep doing so.

Good instructors that offer education as well as training are the exception not the rule in the diving industry.

Be inspired by your instructor, and emulate their diving practices if those practices are of good quality. But realize that "going pro" is not the zenith of the diving experience....going pro just buys you annual fees and insurance....As a PADI DM the current annual fee/dues cost me $120...someone said they get free air...if the average cost of a fill is $5 I could dive 24 times on that money....and if the average cost of a fill is $10 I could dive 12 times on that money....and during those dives I don't have chase students or deal with their issues. Professional liability insurance currently costs +/- $400 for DM/assistant Instructor, annual fees and insurance costs are close to double for Instructors. That is worth a lot of air fills.

One does not need to be a "pro" to share their passion and enthusiasm. One does not need to be a "pro" to be a mentor. And one does not need to be a "pro" to be a good diver.

-Z
 

CMAS 3* is really more about leadership. All the skills you need to improve as a diver are there at 2 Star with gas planning and accelerated Deco, although I appreciate the difference in Depth limitations between the two

But in the context of this thread, CMAS 2 Star or Rescue + Nitrox plus Tech 40 intro to Tech (which combined are roughly the same as 2 Star) should provide any Rec diver all the fundamental practical and theoretical skills they need

I've said this before but worth repeating, that In my opinion (and that of a lot of others) Tech 40 - basically gas planning and 10 mins deco, so really Intro to Tech, should be a mandatory course before and professional cert (or even a Master diver card)
 
But it sure doesn't look like an efficient use of time or money for someone just looking to become a better diver with no interest in working in the industry.

Trust your instinct. Your thinking is on track.
 
CMAS 3* is really more about leadership. All the skills you need to improve as a diver are there at 2 Star with gas planning and accelerated Deco, although I appreciate the difference in Depth limitations between the two

But in the context of this thread, CMAS 2 Star or Rescue + Nitrox plus Tech 40 intro to Tech (which combined are roughly the same as 2 Star) should provide any Rec diver all the fundamental practical and theoretical skills they need

I've said this before but worth repeating, that In my opinion (and that of a lot of others) Tech 40 - basically gas planning and 10 mins deco, so really Intro to Tech, should be a mandatory course before and professional cert (or even a Master diver card)

Not in France, which is CMAS associate. The "plongeur niveau 3" (read it "diver level 3", equivalent to CMAS***) is about diving deeper than 40m with air. I have never followed the course, but I assume it covers deco. It is possible that even the "plongeur niveau 2" (CMAS**) covers a bit of deco, but, again, I cannot say it (to be more specific: ). Leadership here starts at "plongeur niveau 4", which now you know it is CMAS****

Frankly speaking, I wouldn't suggest to go "that" deep with air, so I'd recommend different paths, but in the end, it's also a matter of personal choices.

However, it seems to me that the OP was interested more in a "PADI-style" curriculum and mentioned an interest in GUE. Both approaches are perfectly fine - but they're very far from CMAS, which is also not that common in the US (I guess). So probably it is not worth to discuss CMAS in this post...
 
Not picking on the poster I am quoting below, just using his post as a cogent example for some points:

For dive courses, OW,AOW and then rescue/first aid, would be the minimum.

Equipment specialist if the workings of your gear and having the ability to do simple stuff yourself and save a dive. Science of diving if the theory really interests you.

There is nothing really taught in the Equipment Specialist course that one could not learn from a fellow diver with experience owning and maintaining their own gear. The course does not teach how to crack open 1st and 2nd stages to adjust them.

The course is designed for someone 10 years old or over and only requires 2 to 4 hours time commitment to be considered an "Equipment Specialist"....Think about that for a moment.

You can learn more by reading threads on Scuba Board than you will in the "Equipment Specialist" class....there is nothing about this certification that offers much value except except it puts one in a classroom with an instructor to mind-meld some basic gear info instead of having to go out and seek that information from others...what you get for your money, is some baic info from someone who is following a specific curriculum and may or may not know much beyond what is in that curriculum. Remember, the tech in the back of the shop who is doing the servicing is not necessarily the guy giving the class....just because one is an instructor does not mean they have any significant experience working on dive gear.


dive dive dive

Outside of diving, physical fitness, yoga breathing, seamanship, meteorology, oceanography, medical and first aid, etc will help.

I agree completely with the above. It is experience that makes a better diver, not training.

Also, training does not equal education....there are some fundamental differences between the two. One can be trained to perform an action but have no idea beyond what they are doing physically. For instance:

One can be trained to change a tire...the act of removing the tire and installing a new one. This procedural. Educating would involve information on tire wear, proper selection for types of driving conditions, how to judge types of tire wear and what causes them and how to correct them...it is having a more holistic understanding of the tire of a vehicle and how it relates to the overall piece of machinery the vehicle is and its performance. It is not necessary to be educated to know how to remove and replace a tire...but when one starts evaluating "when" and "why" along with the "what" and the "how", they are now starting down the road of being not just trained but educated.

Certified does not equal Educated.

DM is just about useless to make you a better diver. It needs you to be a good diver to start and teaches you to do those skills at a demonstration level, not a practical dive level. You would not take driver education teacher courses to become a better driver, so why take a dive teaching course to be a better diver? I looked long and hard at DM course and decided that my money would be better spent on just diving and doing other things, mentioned above, to make me a better diver.

The sentiment expressed in the quote above is a really god point. I find it sadly humorous when people talk about the basic skills they either learned or refined in their Divemaster training course....to me it is statement that the instructor who taught the course had no standards for entry....which should tell one a lot. There are a bunch of threads on SB where folks discuss how difficult or challenging basic things were during the course such as swimming, floating, and treading water.....for a "professional" level certification for an activity that is done in the water, one would think that the basic standards would require the candidate to be proficient with these personal skills before enrolling.

One other thing to think about is that you may face increased liability in case of an incident, even if you are recreational diving as a customer of a dive operation. As a dive professional the level of ordinary care might be deemed higher for you than it would be for a ordinary rescue diver.

The above is often stated but never cited, even with the higher prevalence of lawsuits in the US compared to the rest of the world.


Beyond that, dive, dive ,dive. Pay attention to your skills, practice buoyancy control, practice different fining and propulsion techniques, practice gas consumption management.

The above is good advice in my opinion.

I would like to see Master Diver rating go away from being a customer loyalty card and be one where you had t demonstrate above average skills and knowledge at all dive aspects. Seriously limit the ability to issue this rating, perhaps to the course director level or employee of the dive agency to keep it from being another bragging rights card that anyone can buy.

Not faulting @Rickk for stating the above, but it brings up a point that folks tend to have a mono-perspective about training, for lack of a better term. Although Master Diver is a "recognition card" under PADI and SSI, it is an actual course of instruction and certification level under NAUI.

Watch others underwater for good skills to emulate and bad ones to avoid, get a buddy with a go pro to video you and see if your skills look as good as you think you do.

Another piece of excellent advice...and regarding using video: As a swim coach and ski instructor video is great tool to enhance feedback and discussions on movement analysis, but for diving where communication is difficult at best during the activity, video can be an especially effective force-multiplier for skill development.

-Z
 
Not in France, which is CMAS associate

The Standards for 2 Star are here

The Standards for 3 Star are here

I'm BSAC Dive Leader (2 or 3 Star depending on which comparison table I'm viewing) as well as PADI Instructor

Hence I understand that Deco procedures (backgas) are covered under 2 Star training


I can also argue that a properly taught DM course can be invaluable. People claim there are no diving skills taught. Yes/No. To be proficient when teaching confined water, a DM/Instructor should be able to be neutral while carrying out a task, without conscious thought as well as be able to position themselves without sculling

A bit like when driving performing an overtake maneuver - there's no real conscious thought with the complex hand/feet/eye coordination all while thinking about what you need from the grocery store.

It's not appreciated how much more fine control you need with buoyancy in a 1.8m/6' pool rather than normal diving with plenty of water above you.

On 80-90% of my DM courses the first couple of weekends or 5 days on full time are spent of remedial work, getting the diver to the standard where they can really learn and complete the modules

Unfortunately I'm always reluctant to recommend DM because a great many divers aren't interested in investing their time (even on part time courses) to complete to course correctly, learning and mastering all the skills and techniques. These people want to collect a card after 7 - 10 days box ticking, and there are many dive centres happy to take their money.
 

Thanks. Again, they are different from the French federation, which is a CMAS affiliate. Maybe the discrepancy is in part due to the affiliation: in the end, they are two different agencies, even if affiliated. For sure they have several agreements, and possibly they determined equivalences even if the limits of the courses are slightly different... I cannot find any other explanation. If you know, I am curious :)

Reference for the French levels are only in French, you can find them even in Wikipedia (where you have the link to FFESSM): Plongeur niveau 3 — Wikipédia

I'm BSAC Dive Leader (2 or 3 Star depending on which comparison table I'm viewing) as well as PADI Instructor

Hence I understand that Deco procedures (backgas) are covered under 2 Star training


I can also argue that a properly taught DM course can be invaluable. People claim there are no diving skills taught. Yes/No. To be proficient when teaching confined water, a DM/Instructor should be able to be neutral while carrying out a task, without conscious thought as well as be able to position themselves without sculling

A bit like when driving performing an overtake maneuver - there's no real conscious thought with the complex hand/feet/eye coordination all while thinking about what you need from the grocery store.

It's not appreciated how much more fine control you need with buoyancy in a 1.8m/6' pool rather than normal diving with plenty of water above you.

On 80-90% of my DM courses the first couple of weekends or 5 days on full time are spent of remedial work, getting the diver to the standard where they can really learn and complete the modules

Unfortunately I'm always reluctant to recommend DM because a great many divers aren't interested in investing their time (even on part time courses) to complete to course correctly, learning and mastering all the skills and techniques. These people want to collect a card after 7 - 10 days box ticking, and there are many dive centres happy to take their money.

I guess everybody here agrees that a DM course with a serious instructor, like I am sure you are, is a hot course. But it seems to me that everything you described is taught during a good course about introduction to tech (cavern, essentials, fundies, etc.), and students are supposed to know how to train to improve their weaknesses once the course is over. Clearly, it works only given a good instructor, but this is true for the DM course as well.

So the point here is: is the DM course the best way to achieve these results? Or is an introduction to technical diving a better solution?
In terms of skills, what does a DM course have more than a serious course about introduction to tech? (caver, essentials, fundies, etc.)
Also, besides the commercial aspects and the management of divers with low experience, what does a good DM course offer more than a serious course about introduction to tech?
 
Also, besides the commercial aspects and the management of divers with low experience, what does a good DM course offer more than a serious course about introduction to tech?
This really depends on how you quantify courses. Either by teh end goal or the skills you pick up along the way

So with DM, it with the possible exception of cave, is the only course where you should have exception buoyancy in very shallow water (less than 1 atm) Most divers pass through this depth once on teh way down and once on the way up.

With guiding - especially with strange divers whose skills are indeterminable before the dive, you are effectively a solo diver - so lots of mental "what if" preparations and then you do need to have lots of available bandwidth so you can concentrate on navigation and your guests. and basic fundamental skills need to be dialed away. Guests can "disappear" in an instant

Tech obv teaches you in depth about gas planning and deco etc,. the fundamental buoyancy skills shouldn't be anything special - its just that most people starting tech aren't as capable as they believe they are

Cave is something else since you're in a physical overhead and you have the added pressure of lines and lights, silt outs etc. The only comparable course is ADV wreck with considerable penetration - but with wreck you have the possibilities of currents - each is their own speciality. I'm comfortable penetrating blue water deepish wrecks - but you wouldn't get me into a cave. Not my thing.

Caven again isn't anything special since you're in the light zone, the fundamental requirements aren't that onerous

But on each course, techniques and processes you learn during that course can only assist you in normal diving and you never know what little nuggets of knowledge you will pick up


That said, courses are artificial. They're deliberately safe. Post course you consolidate the information and enhance the skills especially when you need those skills and muscle memory kicks in.

For instance being comfortable slowly demonstrating reg remove and replace, served me well once when I had a hose failure at 40m where switching regs, doing shut downs was little more than an annoyance, for others it may have been a drama

Courses teach you the skills but diving gets you to practice and perfect them.
 
All the skills you need to improve as a diver are there at 2 Star with gas planning and accelerated Deco, although I appreciate the difference in Depth limitations between the two
As before, the CMAS star system depends heavily on national standards. Up here, light deco isn't covered until 3*. And the 3* cert is a very nice mix of dive leadership and personal development. Yes, it might very well be different between national 2*/3* certs.

But you can't be certain that a 2* diver knows crap about staged deco. According to ISO standards, CMAS 2* is roughly equivalent to PADI Rescue (although, having climbed both ladders, I believe that Rescue is above 2*, while 3* is above DM. ISO standards be damned.)
 
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