An end to the ‘domino effect’ of Liveaboards.

[Ministryofgiraffes]

Quick ‘Jerry McGuire’ mission statement here.

I believe we must put an end to the structure that enables the liveaboard domino effect ( a confirmed boat is cancelled because several divers cancel/demand date change and the operator then in turn cancels the boat for the remaining divers due to ‘lack of numbers’)... it has been a problem for a while, but is becoming an epidemic in light of the current global conditions. I guess the main issue I have with it is that it permits, in my opinion, one of the most odious traits of selfishness...that of ‘opting others out in their behalf’..

I have zero issue with people choosing to opt out, it’s a free world, they should be able to do whatever they like. I do have an issue with people making a choice which then, by default opts others out or if they make a choice and expect others to pay for that choice. This is the essence of the liveaboard domino effect which is and will undermine any recovery in my opinion.

Let’s be clear that I am not talking about individuals who have valid reasons for not being able to make the boat and thus have a valid reason for requesting a refund from their insurance provider, namely:

A) Their country goes in lockdown and there is no way they can leave the geographical area.
B) The destination country goes on lockdown with all flights in cancelled and there is no way they can get to the boat..

: although, I feel in both of these instances that moving forward there needs to be an insurance policy to cover this eventuality so that the operator is not liable to accommodate changes and the divers have full clear recourse with their insurance provider to cover the loss due to lockdowns (as we see with general standard vacation insurance policies)

I do believe that it should be mandatory/generally accepted practice for a boat to offer a full refund if they are the ones cancelling the trip, but if the rest of my mandate is adhered to, the only reason for this cancellation should be that the boat is not seaworthy, which in turn should be covered by their insurance and therefore refunds shouldn’t be an issue. It should no longer be an issue for a boat to sail with lower numbers due to a group cancelling because the structure should mean that those individuals are held to their contracts, crew get paid, operators don’t have to cover the losses and remaining divers aren’t penalized because they are the ones who actually showed up.

one other aspect which would need to be considered though, it would generally have to be accepted by operators that they would lose some $ on lower gear rentals/alcohol sales etc for lower numbers, also I believe the lack of tips would be a material loss for the crew and therefore I feel tips need to be included in crew salary so that they are paid a correct wage for their work. Tip extra if you like, send Zuckerberg an extra $20 if you feel Facebook has done a really good job this year if you like, but tips can no longer be the difference for crew as to whether it is worthwhile them joining the boat for a week. They would be and currently are materially impacted by group cancellations/mandated date changes and this needs to change.

So in short, we must remove the structure which allows people to demand date changes for a litany of reasons which should not be covered/accommodated by operators, which in turn have a domino effect of impacting others negatively. It’s a shameful practice of entitlement and selfishness and needs to end.

Apologies ‘a bit’ for typos etc.

 

[CycleCat]

I have never used a liveaboard but I agree! I would not want my anticipated trip cancelled because somebody else changed their mind at the last minute.

 

[runsongas]

insurance companies will either not cover it, have premiums so high nobody buys the insurance, or a vaccine comes out and the risk of an interruption is low enough people don't buy the insurance.

 

[living4experiences]

I believe we must put an end to the structure that enables the liveaboard domino effect ( a confirmed boat is cancelled because several divers cancel/demand date change and the operator then in turn cancels the boat for the remaining divers due to ‘lack of numbers’)... it has been a problem for a while, but is becoming an epidemic in light of the current global conditions. I guess the main issue I have with it is that it permits, in my opinion, one of the most odious traits of selfishness...that of ‘opting others out in their behalf’..

I agree wholeheartedly, but how do we go about starting a movement for that change? I'm sure the liveaboard companies don't care, as evidenced by all the nightmarish stories on these forums. As push-back, perhaps as dive travelers, we don't use liveaboard travel for awhile. Knowing there are locations in the world that are best accessed by liveaboard, there's still lots of great land-based diving to be explored. Just my opinion...

 

[Ministryofgiraffes]

insurance companies will either not cover it, have premiums so high nobody buys the insurance, or a vaccine comes out and the risk of an interruption is low enough people don't buy the insurance.

First 2 are certainly valid hurdles and need to be considered, but I believe can be overcome. 3rd one, respectfully, is irrelevant.

A: As I’ve said many times on this board, i have friends who work for Lloyds and everything is insurable if there is demand, also pretty much everything that is insured once fell under the ‘they will never insure that’ banner.
B: There is no reason why it wouldn’t be the same price as standard cancellation insurance for any other vacation.
C: This is irrelevant to the issue as the goal of this is not for individuals to 100% have insurance, that’s their perogative, the initiative is to stop those people from pinning the cost on the operator and other divers who showed up when they decide to cancel their trip and want those others to eat the cost for their decision. If the generally accepted policy is, ‘you have to cancel, you had better have insurance to cover it or you eat the cost, not the operator/other divers’ then it’s likely people would get insurance, if they didn’t, then that’s their prerogative/risk. I shouldn’t expect you to pay because I cancelled and didn’t have insurance so I’m demanding both the boat and you accommodate my requests.

 

[Ministryofgiraffes]

I agree wholeheartedly, but how do we go about starting a movement for that change? I'm sure the liveaboard companies don't care, as evidenced by all the nightmarish stories on these forums. As push-back, perhaps as dive travelers, we don't use liveaboard travel for awhile. Knowing there are locations in the world that are best accessed by liveaboard, there's still lots of great land-based diving to be explored. Just my opinion...

I think they do care, but they are too afraid to lose those individuals as future customers if they don’t relent, especially as they are often groups. So it defaults to pandering to the group and trying to placate those who did show up/have not cancelled.

One thing that could be a positive change for Covid is the necessity to have insurance before entering countries. I absolutely believe the economy of scale would support mandatory cancellation insurance...if it was mandatory. There was 100% no insurance policy which covered Covid...until there was...

 

[Barnaby'sDad]

I think they do care, but they are too afraid to lose those individuals as future customers if they don’t relent, especially as they are often groups. So it defaults to pandering to the group and trying to placate those who did show up/have not cancelled.

One thing that could be a positive change for Covid is the necessity to have insurance before entering countries. I absolutely believe the economy of scale would support mandatory cancellation insurance...if it was mandatory. There was 100% no insurance policy which covered Covid...until there was...

I believe that occurs with standard dive operators, not just liveaboards. The saying “you can’t please everyone” comes to mind. Ex. One dive operator held a boat with 20+ divers on it for 30 minutes post-departure time waiting on two divers to show up. The guys eventually showed up with an attitude...smelling like a Budweiser brewery.

Did the dive op in question avoid offending the two inconsiderate pricks by waiting for them? Yes. However, they offended the rest of the boat, as we (the rest of the divers) had to endure their foul attitude and aroma.

The only way you should get a refund from the operator is if: 1. The operator cancels, or 2. The operator is able to fill your spot. For all other reasons...get insurance.

A dive operator isn’t Burger King. People with unreasonable expectations shouldn’t be able to “have it your way” at the expense of other divers.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Very interesting topic.
I have never had the pleasure of being on a far away exotic liveaboard trip but someday I hope to. I just go on the local two and three day ones in CA.
All I can do is just offer my opinion on how I think cancellation policy should go.
If any trip is booked there should be a small booking fee that is not refundable. This covers the wages for the person behind the screen processing your booking order.
There could be a “cooling off” period of say one week after booking to get 100% of the remainder back, but this would only be if you booked say five months in advance.
After that the refund amount is integrated to be less and less each month (or it could be by week). So at four months out you would get 75% back, at three months 50% back, at two months only 25% back, a month out you lose it all. You would have to get your own insurance if you didn’t trust yourself.
This would give incentive for people to stick with the plan and not just wait until the last minute and then “dump” the booking willy nilly and leave everyone hanging.
I’ve had that happen to me on a smaller scale heading to Southern California to get on a boat only to get a call 6 hours into my trip down I-5 that not enough people stuck with their plans and the trip was cancelled. I got my money back but not my time and gas.

 

[Ministryofgiraffes]

sensible options Eric. It’s actually pretty much how it works although there are staggered payment dates getting closer to the departure. The issue seems to be more about divers not requesting refunds (although that is occasionally an issue) and more a case of divers demanding date changes due to erroneous reasons and divers feeling entitled to ‘no questions asked Date changes’

I read an email forwarded to me by an operator last year where the group had 14 divers flying to Egypt from marseille and 4 flying from Perpignan ( both in the south of France) the flight from marseille was delayed by a day, Perpignan was cancelled a week before and it meant that the 4 would now have to drive 3 hours to marseille and they would only land at midnight (still time to catch the boat) but unfortunately they were going to have to push the trip to the following year as that was too inconvenient and they couldn’t make the flight citing ‘act of god/ too many things may go wrong’ The operator relented and the boat was cancelled for the remaining 6 divers coming from North America who were all holding no refundable tickets and were left to scramble for a new boat they had already previously ruled out on an itinerary none of them wanted...no refunds available for those remaining divers, reschedule only.

the flippancy of the email of the group really annoyed me, it was a ‘shrug’ email. No consideration for the other divers, ‘it looks like it might be a bit inconvenient so by default, screw the other divers’. It has to end.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

sensible options Eric. It’s actually pretty much how it works although there are staggered payment dates getting closer to the departure. The issue seems to be more about divers not requesting refunds (although that is occasionally an issue) and more a case of divers demanding date changes due to erroneous reasons and divers feeling entitled to ‘no questions asked Date changes’

I read an email forwarded to me by an operator last year where the group had 14 divers flying to Egypt from marseille and 4 flying from Perpignan ( both in the south of France) the flight from marseille was delayed by a day, Perpignan was cancelled a week before and it meant that the 4 would now have to drive 3 hours to marseille and they would only land at midnight (still time to catch the boat) but unfortunately they were going to have to push the trip to the following year as that was too inconvenient and they couldn’t make the flight citing ‘act of god/ too many things may go wrong’ The operator relented and the boat was cancelled for the remaining 6 divers coming from North America who were all holding no refundable tickets and were left to scramble for a new boat they had already previously ruled out on an itinerary none of them wanted...no refunds available for those remaining divers, reschedule only.

the flippancy of the email of the group really annoyed me, it was a ‘shrug’ email. No consideration for the other divers, ‘it looks like it might be a bit inconvenient so by default, screw the other divers’. It has to end.

In this day and age of endless information on the internet, I would think that sort of policy would be the beginning of the end for those types of operators. I know that if I read about an operator repeatedly caving in to those types of demands I certainly wouldn’t use them. A date is a date to me, If you can’t make it then tough, just make it happen no excuses. They should be the ones losing their money, not the person who can show up.
I read about those things here before and thought it was bizarre.