Regulator for tec

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(at least in the USA, this may not be the case worldwide)
I think EU rules simply forbid this. Once you buy an item, it is your, and you can resell it to everyone. Despite this, also here most official SP dealers do not like to sell the spare parts,m they want to get money for servicing the regs. But it is their choice, nothing forbids that they can sell the parts, and in fact a small number of them are selling, both on line and physically in the shop.[/QUOTE]

The scubapro business model is not unique, there are many companies that try to run very closed systems, apple & bose come to mind. But for every one of those companies there is a competitor who runs a more open business model. Customers are free to chose what company and business model works for them and I won't knock anyone choices.
Interesting that you cite Apple. I am using a lot of Mac Pro and Macbook Pro, and the reason for which for many years I did buy them was that those machines were designed for being easily opened and upgraded. This lasted until 2012, when Apple suddenly changed their policy.
My 15-inches MBP mid-2012 was the last machine where the user's manual was providing instructions on how to open the case, replace the hard disk and expand the RAM. With their first retina model, these activities were forbidden for the final user, and till now they remained with that crazy approach even for the "pipe" Mac Pro.
It seems that now Apple is coming back to more user-friendly machines, such as the new Mac Pro "cheese scraper", which is designed to be user-upgraded. I am still waiting for a new Apple laptop which comes back to be user-expandable, as I am still using my old mid-2012 MBP, where I expanded the RAM to 16 GB and the SSD to 4 TB. But I fear we are going severely off topic...
 
Heck, someone on this board is selling a used Mk25/s600 for $250.. if I was a scubapro junkie, in need of a reg, ....I would be all over that!
 
Probably this changed over time.
I was trained at the Italian Scubapro factory, and not only the technician did show me how to service my reg. I was sent to the assembling line and for approximately one hour I replaced one of the workers, mounting and tuning production regs (just two, in one hour).
I was yet an university student, not working for a shop.
It was a real "hands on" training, with little theory, apart when they did show me the machine for measuring the cracking pressure and the other one for charting the respiratory cycle.
I had understood that all the technicians allowed to service SP regs had the same training.
It must be said that, in such old times, there were no "diving shops", nor "diving centers".
Teaching was done only at diving clubs, which was the way I managed to be trained. There was no PADI, nor other commercial training agencies.
Good clubs, with hundredths of associates, were allowed to make "bulk purchases" of diving equipment directly from the factory, usually once per year, and SP wanted that at least one instructor was properly trained for servicing their regs in each of these clubs.
Most divers did own a boat or a Zodiac, perhaps sharing the costs among 2 or 3 friends. There were no divemasters, diving was always a self-guided experience.
After having being trained, I was responsible of maintaining the huge set of cylinders and regulators of my club (and the 5 surviving AROs, pure-oxygen rebreathers).
I know that all this looks strange for people in the US, where diving (as almost anything else) has always been mostly a commercial activity, not a sport practised under the national Olympic no-profit organization.
Sounds like a pretty cool experience. Awesome bit of history. Those are the exact reasons I support hog as (if I'm wrong correct me) they are one of the few company's here in the US today that provide/allow hands on training of end users.
 
i assume that any manufacturer who starts out would also start that way. reach out to end user. provide the training and all... but over time as they expand, companies becomes bigger, they become a target for unscrupulous lawsuits. hence they need to protect themselves.

the U.S. is very fond of lawsuits. That companies need to protect themselves.

such things aren't found in other countries.

I would understand why the Italian why is different from the US way. I mean look at the people... they're so different.
 
@LanceRiley Thank you for considering our products at Deep6. If you have any questions feel free to post them in our manufacturers forum and we will be happy to help.

To us, offering user servicing as an option is key to our views on how a brand should support their customers, however it is not the only option. You can always send the reg back to us for service (first service is free - including parts), use one of our service centers, or even take it to a local technician who is willing to service it for you.

This is one of the main reasons we include a set of free kits with every order. It is all about you, the customer, and making it as easy as possible for you to maintain. If a local shop is not affiliated with us, we still support them in servicing our regs. They can get kits from us, as well as authorization to service our regs if they can show experience working with other balanced diaphragm regulators.

We also freely publish our service manual online, which has a highly detailed work flow written out.

We have a worldwide presence with offices in both the US and Taiwan, as well as a growing list of affiliates. In the modern day of quick and low cost shipping, geographical distances are bridged rapidly and remote service and support is often faster than local support. The problems of not having a local service center are largely a relic of the past that disappeared with the advent of the internet.

We are just a couple of guys who like to make great dive gear, and develop innovative products. This is our passion, and others I feel have noticed. We have many happy customers here on Scubaboard, and would be excited to have you as one as well.

Occasionally we have detractors, and that's ok, because when you disrupt the industry with new ideas and methods, it will ruffle some feathers. Some more than others :)

Whatever choice you make I am sure you will be happy with it, as most dive gear available on the market today from various brands are quality products. If you have any questions for us, or about our products, please let us know.

Landon Lasseter MD, MS, MBA
Deep 6 Gear
 
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@LanceRiley Thank you for considering our products at Deep6. If you have any questions feel free to post them in our manufacturers forum and we will be happy to help.

To us, offering user servicing as an option is key to our views on how a brand should support their customers, however it is not the only option. You can always send the reg back to us for service (first service is free - including parts), use one of our service centers, or even take it to a local technician who is willing to service it for you.

This is one of the main reasons we include a set of free kits with every order. It is all about you, the customer, and making it as easy as possible for you to maintain. If a local shop is not affiliated with us, we still support them in servicing our regs. They can get kits from us, as well as authorization to service our regs if they can show experience working with other balanced diaphragm regulators.

We also freely publish our service manual online, which has a highly detailed work flow written out.

We have a worldwide presence with offices in both the US and Taiwan, as well as a growing list of affiliates. In the modern day of quick and low cost shipping, geographical distances are bridged rapidly and remote service and support is often faster than local support. The problems of not having a local service center are largely a relic of the past that disappeared with the advent of the internet.

We are just a couple of guys who like to make great dive gear, and develop innovative products. This is our passion, and others I feel have noticed. We have many happy customers here on Scubaboard, and would be excited to have you as one as well.

Occasionally we have detractors, and that's ok, because when you disrupt the industry with new ideas and methods, it will ruffle some feathers. Some more than others :)

Whatever choice you make I am sure you will be happy with it, as most dive gear available on the market today from various brands are quality products. If you have any questions for us, or about our products, please let us know.

Landon Lasseter MD, MS, MBA
Deep 6 Gear

thank you for the reach out? do you have any support in the Philippines? if you do ... you would be popular with dive shops who have their own tech maintaining rentals
 
Where did I mention "death" or anything related to what you claim I said in my post you reference please? And what claims are you objecting too? Are you objecting to the fact that these companies are indeed tiny/diminutive when compared to AL, SP, Huish Group for example?

Good for you but you live in a privileged and prosperous society/country in very big contrast to many in the rest of the world, such as where the OP lives. We can barely afford one regulator let alone the so many you appear to have and hence we need to protect our investment by buying from a well established company with worldwide service and representation especially a company such as SP that has all of these in addition having some of the best products, regulators in this case, in the world with prove track record in reliability, performance, stability, service, availability of parts and service in addition to competitive prices at the different price points. My opinion is shaped by the opinion and requests of my clients/students who insist on buying (after saving for it for a long time) a brand name regulator, mainly SP, and forego other options from lesser known brands with lower prices just for the points I made above. These third world people have a lot of common sense and savvy to make up for the lack of the financial resources and luxuries you have in your happy land.

If you believe this part of the Ark story, then you have to believe the entire story and know that these "amateurs" had an incredible most powerful, all knowing, all mighty, all great and omnipresent force behind them, God himself!!! The "professionals" who built the Titanic didn't have the big Guy himself guiding them.

There are millions of divers making 10's of millions of dives per year and yet no one is dying because of bad technicians doing bad things to the regulators, you have already insisted that there are/were no deaths due to equipment problems, and hence your argument holds no water and isn't a universal problem or stands to be a real problem at all. The absolute majority of people have a certified/trained technician do the service and not themselves and yet no recorded deaths anywhere, again according to you.

BTW, let us all remember the one tiny but very load and nasty BCD maker who simply chose to close down without warning and left many former clients holding the bag/bladder with nowhere to go for support and service.

P.S. I changed the terms "miniature, make-belief" in my post to "tiny/diminutive" after a very polite and professional request from a friend on SB. He made his point with utmost respect and I changed them. I made the change mainly to avoid creating a controversy detracting from the main points in my glorious reply :)

Trying to play catch up, so only quoting the most recent quote.
Couple very important points to make.
These companies may be small, however the regulators are currently being manufactured by quite large entities. The same entities that make most of the regulators for Huish, including parts for Atomic.
If Deep6 went away right now, you could still get parts kits for all of their regulators via Apeks, HOG, DGX, and a slew of others that are using comparable/identical parts kits.
HOG is essentially the house brand for the largest dive shop company in the US, so as long as Divers Supply doesn't go anywhere, HOG won't go anywhere.
The size/financial stability etc etc of WMD and ODS is arguably better than that of most scuba brands as they are not tied to any particular brand. They make regulators, and they make LOTS of regulators, for many people. I would argue that they are in fact more stable than companies like Atomic, Oceanic, Hollis, and Dive Rite. Hell financial stability of Atomic, Oceanic, and Hollis were the reason that they were sold to Huish in the first place.
In terms of quality, the machining tolerances and what not are on par with anyone out there and in many cases are better than some of the "big boy" companies, particularly in the plating options where companies like Apex are very restricted on the types of plating they can use since they are in the UK.

In terms to parts availability, it is expressly written into the dealer contracts in North America for all of Huish's brands, all of Aqualungs brands, and all of Scubapro's that parts kits are not to be sold to end users. That is the case in many/most other regions as well. That alone is reason enough to start looking elsewhere when talking about technical diving regulator options.
You do mention
"The tiny/diminutive start up companies sell parts and tools and expect end user to do the servicing because they don't have the distribution network or the financial bandwidth to do it through their own dealer network or themselves. They make up for their shortcomings by putting the burden and risk on the consumer. They make the "defect" appear as a feature and an advantage."
What about Poseidon who is embracing the concept conceived by Chris while he was at HOG to not only allow end-users to repair their own regulators, but to actually have agency approved courses to teach them how to do it? Dive Rite did not restrict access to parts long before that, though did not have a course for end-users because the demand was there by technical divers and they didn't want to restrict access. The large companies are protecting their antiquated dealership models by making that restriction. I would trust a borrowed regulator serviced by an individual who is actively diving and depends on those regulators for his own life long before I would trust it when serviced by the random Scubapro shop in the middle of a land-locked city who only services a handful of regulators a year. Hell, Air-Tech scuba is a business dedicated to fixing regulators from local shops because it's easier for them to not have to deal with it. Scubatoys and others have done contract repair service for a long time because of that same issue.


Now, I will agree that recommending brands like HOG and Deep6 to someone who lives in Asia is not where I would normally go because of their limited presence over there. If it was a dedicated tech diver who is doing to do their own service and is looking for something like that then I wouldn't say you should avoid those regulators, but they would not be my first choice. In the US however, I think the technical community should actively avoid brands like Atomic/Apeks/Scubapro for technical diving regulators because of their service issues in this country. I don't know what their dealer agreements look like in other countries, but I know several dive shops in the EU have lost their dealership with Apeks when they were caught selling parts kits to the US. That is especially compounded with their ridiculous pricing in this country.
Deep Sea Supply and Salvo came up, but did the regulators that were made by big stable companies come up that are no longer serviceable? The big brands discontinue support for products regularly and you never really know when or what is going to go away. If you want, Salvo regs are still quite serviceable, just not with parts kits from Salvo directly. They are still standard regulators from Taiwan that are still manufactured and you can still get parts for them, just have to look. No different than we have to do for parts for the older Scubapro regs. It's annoying, but if you're committed to keep the going, then you deal with it. No manufacturer wants these things to last forever, they need you to upgrade, so stuff goes obsolete.


@LanceRiley I usually don't respond to these big threads unless I get tagged in them which is why I'm here.
You have perfectly good regulators right now, and I would recommend keeping them. You may or may not be required to dive DIN, but if you are, then my recommendation would be to purchase something from Scubapro and also purchase the DIN conversion kit for your existing MK17. Learn to swap them back and forth yourself, or buy a beer for your friendly local technician to swap them when you need to. There are merits to both styles of regulator, but I would not look at switching brands since you are already invested in a perfectly good regulator and switching brands is only going to prove annoying for you. If you purchase a new first stage, I would consider looking at the new MK19 from Scubapro since it is a sealed diaphragm and has a swivel turret which I feel is better for hose routing, though it admittedly looks quite goofy. If you find a good deal on a used MK10/20/25 in DIN, then that is perfectly fine as well, just make sure to soak it after rinsing to prevent salt from getting into the piston chambers and staying there
 
Trying to play catch up, so only quoting the most recent quote.
Couple very important points to make.
These companies may be small, however the regulators are currently being manufactured by quite large entities. The same entities that make most of the regulators for Huish, including parts for Atomic.
If Deep6 went away right now, you could still get parts kits for all of their regulators via Apeks, HOG, DGX, and a slew of others that are using comparable/identical parts kits.
HOG is essentially the house brand for the largest dive shop company in the US, so as long as Divers Supply doesn't go anywhere, HOG won't go anywhere.
The size/financial stability etc etc of WMD and ODS is arguably better than that of most scuba brands as they are not tied to any particular brand. They make regulators, and they make LOTS of regulators, for many people. I would argue that they are in fact more stable than companies like Atomic, Oceanic, Hollis, and Dive Rite. Hell financial stability of Atomic, Oceanic, and Hollis were the reason that they were sold to Huish in the first place.
In terms of quality, the machining tolerances and what not are on par with anyone out there and in many cases are better than some of the "big boy" companies, particularly in the plating options where companies like Apex are very restricted on the types of plating they can use since they are in the UK.

In terms to parts availability, it is expressly written into the dealer contracts in North America for all of Huish's brands, all of Aqualungs brands, and all of Scubapro's that parts kits are not to be sold to end users. That is the case in many/most other regions as well. That alone is reason enough to start looking elsewhere when talking about technical diving regulator options.
You do mention
"The tiny/diminutive start up companies sell parts and tools and expect end user to do the servicing because they don't have the distribution network or the financial bandwidth to do it through their own dealer network or themselves. They make up for their shortcomings by putting the burden and risk on the consumer. They make the "defect" appear as a feature and an advantage."
What about Poseidon who is embracing the concept conceived by Chris while he was at HOG to not only allow end-users to repair their own regulators, but to actually have agency approved courses to teach them how to do it? Dive Rite did not restrict access to parts long before that, though did not have a course for end-users because the demand was there by technical divers and they didn't want to restrict access. The large companies are protecting their antiquated dealership models by making that restriction. I would trust a borrowed regulator serviced by an individual who is actively diving and depends on those regulators for his own life long before I would trust it when serviced by the random Scubapro shop in the middle of a land-locked city who only services a handful of regulators a year. Hell, Air-Tech scuba is a business dedicated to fixing regulators from local shops because it's easier for them to not have to deal with it. Scubatoys and others have done contract repair service for a long time because of that same issue.


Now, I will agree that recommending brands like HOG and Deep6 to someone who lives in Asia is not where I would normally go because of their limited presence over there. If it was a dedicated tech diver who is doing to do their own service and is looking for something like that then I wouldn't say you should avoid those regulators, but they would not be my first choice. In the US however, I think the technical community should actively avoid brands like Atomic/Apeks/Scubapro for technical diving regulators because of their service issues in this country. I don't know what their dealer agreements look like in other countries, but I know several dive shops in the EU have lost their dealership with Apeks when they were caught selling parts kits to the US. That is especially compounded with their ridiculous pricing in this country.
Deep Sea Supply and Salvo came up, but did the regulators that were made by big stable companies come up that are no longer serviceable? The big brands discontinue support for products regularly and you never really know when or what is going to go away. If you want, Salvo regs are still quite serviceable, just not with parts kits from Salvo directly. They are still standard regulators from Taiwan that are still manufactured and you can still get parts for them, just have to look. No different than we have to do for parts for the older Scubapro regs. It's annoying, but if you're committed to keep the going, then you deal with it. No manufacturer wants these things to last forever, they need you to upgrade, so stuff goes obsolete.


@LanceRiley I usually don't respond to these big threads unless I get tagged in them which is why I'm here.
You have perfectly good regulators right now, and I would recommend keeping them. You may or may not be required to dive DIN, but if you are, then my recommendation would be to purchase something from Scubapro and also purchase the DIN conversion kit for your existing MK17. Learn to swap them back and forth yourself, or buy a beer for your friendly local technician to swap them when you need to. There are merits to both styles of regulator, but I would not look at switching brands since you are already invested in a perfectly good regulator and switching brands is only going to prove annoying for you. If you purchase a new first stage, I would consider looking at the new MK19 from Scubapro since it is a sealed diaphragm and has a swivel turret which I feel is better for hose routing, though it admittedly looks quite goofy. If you find a good deal on a used MK10/20/25 in DIN, then that is perfectly fine as well, just make sure to soak it after rinsing to prevent salt from getting into the piston chambers and staying there

hi, thanks for the reply.

yes im keeping the mk17. the local shop does din conversion. so i'll be due for service by june which is end of summer. they said that they can do the overhaul + din conversion . i'll just use a yoke adapter incase i'll need to do yoke. but so far. most dive shops ive frequented have din tanks. somebody also did mention about the Mk19. I realized that the mk19 isn't exactly new. i mean it was mentioned as early as 2008 in this thread sold only to european market. I already have first dib on my dealer for a mk19 but they have to confirm since they're selling it bundled with D420? or is it D400? If going to tech class needs 3 first stage. i'll keep it within Mk17 and Mk19 for purpose of parts uniformity? someday i'll learn to do my regs. just need to find somebody to really help me through the whole process. yep. there's a tech who does it for beer or a very minimal fee. but... he never does it in public.. I guess it's his trade. Doesn't want people getting his job or loosing customers.

so ...... is there anyone here who can point me to where i can get a mk19? my dealer isn't sure they can sell me yet.
 
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