VIP Inspectors: Identifiable vs Identified

[rhwestfall]

@Dive Right In Scuba (Mike): excellent response, and has basically cleared the air IMHO.

Simply put, I as a certified inspector (card or e-verified) would have my sticker accepted (in my case it has my initials and cert # inked on it) for a fill. Also, it might be in my best interest to have the inspection form available (I have pondered cloud based availability). For a Nitrox/Tri-Mix, I should have my credentials available regarding 02 preparation capability, and maybe again my forms.

All good.

Thanks!

edit - I will say this completely falls within my expectations.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

mike are you saying @Marie13 did a vip course with you ? or did a second one with you ,just asking

*correction
I looked into, no we didn't teach her course, but we've taught hundreds of others. as some said, "we were just trying to hammer down and make more money", that's not true as we have made hundreds of VIP inspectors, local and far. Our policy is to help them longterm, and have a place to use their training instead of being scared since they only do a couple or a few a year and dont feel like experts. Hence the $5 that includes tool use, free sticker, free air fill, and extra eyes over your work and paperwork. It's not about the money, it's about quality and safety. Same as it's been since we opened.

 

[lowviz]

If I missed something else in the 27 pages about us, feel free to refresh it and say it here for an answer.

As the OP, that might be a bit of an overstatement. I started this thread to tease out all the vagaries of holding a VIP inspector's card from any 'accepted' agency. I like to let my threads wander as they find their own course. These discussions on all related topics have been most valuable. I think that I actually get the gist...

I like your shop's attitude, patience, perseverance, and presence on SB. I met @Marie13 and trained with her. I can see both sides of this tempest in a teapot.

Please continue to state your case/position and all of us keep our swords checked at the door...

 

[rjack321]

View attachment 564208 View attachment 564208

read the bottom line of the factory label above the green and the network address wwhere It is BOLD PRiNTED with INFORMATION: STARTING THE LINE
CFR's require compliance with CGA documents. GCA documents control what a vis is, CFR's have force of law. So vips are government controlled / regulated with force of law.

You are conflating Scuba shop VIPs with hydrostatic tester VIPs - and incorrect.

The first are voluntary, shops are taking the inspector's word for it that some sort of standard was followed. But if they don't follow any CGA standard or lie and say they did X or Y that is not a crime. Scuba VIP stickers are an attestment of what they did but, not legally binding or enforceable. Annual VIPs by dive shops are completely absent from the CFRs. There is no enforcement of these whatsoever (even if the tank fails) because there is nothing but the fill station requiring them in the first place. This is also why scuba VIP inspectors cannot alter the tank without permission to do so.

VIPs conducted by a hydrostatic testing facility (aka during what DOT calls "requalification") have the force of law. This is why the hydro shop will XXXX out the DOT/TC numbers if the cylinder fails their VIP. They are specifically authorized to do this. In the case of the Worthington sticker shown, that VIP was done at the time of manufacture. Worthington as the manufacturer has legal requirements under the CFRs that don't apply to scuba shop VIPs in year 2,3, and 4 of that cylinders life. They are providing the first qualification of the pressure vessel.

PS I have no problem with DRIS's approach and I'm happy to see Mike spell it out for us quite clearly.

 

[lowviz]

This is also why scuba VIP inspectors cannot alter the tank without permission to do so.

Hammered home in our class. (@abnfrog)

PS I have no problem with DRIS's approach and I'm happy to see Mike spell it out for us quite clearly.

Agree.

 

[NAM001]

You are conflating Scuba shop VIPs with hydrostatic tester VIPs - and incorrect.

The first are voluntary, shops are taking the inspector's word for it that some sort of standard was followed. But if they don't follow any CGA standard or lie and say they did X or Y that is not a crime. Scuba VIP stickers are an attestment of what they did but, not legally binding or enforceable. Annual VIPs by dive shops are completely absent from the CFRs. There is no enforcement of these whatsoever (even if the tank fails) because there is nothing but the fill station requiring them in the first place. This is also why scuba VIP inspectors cannot alter the tank without permission to do so.

VIPs conducted by a hydrostatic testing facility (aka during what DOT calls "requalification") have the force of law. This is why the hydro shop will XXXX out the DOT/TC numbers if the cylinder fails their VIP. They are specifically authorized to do this. In the case of the Worthington sticker shown, that VIP was done at the time of manufacture. Worthington as the manufacturer has legal requirements under the CFRs that don't apply to scuba shop VIPs in year 2,3, and 4 of that cylinders life. They are providing the first qualification of the pressure vessel.

PS I have no problem with DRIS's approach and I'm happy to see Mike spell it out for us quite clearly.

Im not sure whether my comment came across as intended, The cfr';s mandate vips be done in a preticular manor and time frame. cfr's are legal. The statement on a tank saying that the tank has been inspected by the manufacturer is a valid vip inspection good for up to one year from the manufacturer's date which is taken as the hydo date. In the span of time this issue is a very minor one. Many shops do not accept that premis and require a sticker to boot, but it is not necessary. I have never seen a shop actually do a vip on a new tank. they check the date on the hydro and accept it or they apply a sticker with a good date that alligns with the hydro date. Most shops operate on the idea that it is only 15 bucks for an vis and effectivly charge the customer 15 bucks for he first sticker to document an inspection they did not do themselves but have to have to get air. A SCAM OF SORTS, Others say that the vip sticker includes the valve and that the tank alone can not be blindly stickered unless a new valve is applied that has the same statement form the maker that the valve has been inspected. There are a lot of games played in shops over the years. There are a lot of technical valid concerns also like receiving a new tank with out the neck being sealed and or plastic thread plug installed. Again it makes no difference to me because it is an only first application issue. Vip stickers say a lot of different things that mean anywhere to nothing to actual standard references. My air stickers say they comply with PSI osha and cga standards. PSI standards????? they are nothing more than the complilation of the other standards. As I see it PSI standards are that you cmply with federal standards. OSHA AND CGA carry weight of law. Other stickers say this valve and tank meets _________ standards. You can fill in the blank with the selevtive salad of words such as SCUBA INDUSTRY, THIS SHOPS, US, MANUFACTURERS, SCUBA ASSOCIATION and others. all words that mean nothing. And that sticker is slapped on top of a bunch of other stickers. An act that itself says a probper inspection was not done. To be honest to be able to go home and print off your own sticker, put a bunch of words on it, and it be accepted is amazing to me. Much like going home and printing your own 18 wheeler drivers license, or pilot license. Of course this topic like many others will always be a heated debate. Hesated depates include thingsl ike O2 systems and maintenance. Too be honest I dont know anyone that complies wth those standards. But that is another topic that is full of equally diverse views.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

Im not sure whether my comment came across as intended, The cfr';s mandate vips be done in a preticular manor and time frame. cfr's are legal. The statement on a tank saying that the tank has been inspected by the manufacturer is a valid vip inspection good for up to one year from the manufacturer's date which is taken as the hydo date. In the span of time this issue is a very minor one. Many shops do not accept that premis and require a sticker to boot, but it is not necessary. I have never seen a shop actually do a vip on a new tank. they check the date on the hydro and accept it or they apply a sticker with a good date that alligns with the hydro date. Most shops operate on the idea that it is only 15 bucks for an vis and effectivly charge the customer 15 bucks for he first sticker to document an inspection they did not do themselves but have to have to get air. A SCAM OF SORTS, Others say that the vip sticker includes the valve and that the tank alone can not be blindly stickered unless a new valve is applied that has the same statement form the maker that the valve has been inspected. There are a lot of games played in shops over the years. There are a lot of technical valid concerns also like receiving a new tank with out the neck being sealed and or plastic thread plug installed. Again it makes no difference to me because it is an only first application issue. Vip stickers say a lot of different things that mean anywhere to nothing to actual standard references. My air stickers say they comply with PSI osha and cga standards. PSI standards????? they are nothing more than the complilation of the other standards. As I see it PSI standards are that you cmply with federal standards. OSHA AND CGA carry weight of law. Other stickers say this valve and tank meets _________ standards. You can fill in the blank with the selevtive salad of words such as SCUBA INDUSTRY, THIS SHOPS, US, MANUFACTURERS, SCUBA ASSOCIATION and others. all words that mean nothing. And that sticker is slapped on top of a bunch of other stickers. An act that itself says a probper inspection was not done. To be honest to be able to go home and print off your own sticker, put a bunch of words on it, and it be accepted is amazing to me. Much like going home and printing your own 18 wheeler drivers license, or pilot license. Of course this topic like many others will always be a heated debate. Hesated depates include thingsl ike O2 systems and maintenance. Too be honest I dont know anyone that complies wth those standards. But that is another topic that is full of equally diverse views.

You must hang out with the wrong crowd. We VIP every tank that is new, every, single, one. We don't just slap a sticker on them, and some things have been found in them, and damage. There is a reason it's supposed to be done, just like bench testing a new regulator. We also follow all of the standards set forth by those agencies for VIP and Hydro (yes, we have one of those too). So, if you're standard, or the standard you're used to in your area is doing it wrong...you should move or find new dive buddies.

 

[abnfrog]

sign of a pure pro mike......I never sent out a new tank without viping it either

 

[NAM001]

You must hang out with the wrong crowd. We VIP every tank that is new, every, single, one. We don't just slap a sticker on them, and some things have been found in them, and damage. There is a reason it's supposed to be done, just like bench testing a new regulator. We also follow all of the standards set forth by those agencies for VIP and Hydro (yes, we have one of those too). So, if you're standard, or the standard you're used to in your area is doing it wrong...you should move or find new dive buddies.

And how did you attach my comment as relating to your store????

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

And how did you attach my comment as relating to your store????

Nothing about us specifically at all, and I wasn't relating to us. But you say things like the below, and I said the people you hang with don't know what they are doing if that is your expectation and norm. Then, I said how we do things, showing you that not ALL do it the complete wrong way as you implied:
- "I have never seen a shop actually do a vip on a new tank"
- "Most shops operate on the idea that it is only 15 bucks for an vis and effectivly charge the customer 15 bucks for he first sticker to document an inspection they did not do themselves"
- "there are a lot of games played in shops over the years."
- "Too be honest I dont know anyone that complies wth those standards."

Those statements give divers anywhere, that don't know any better, the idea or notion that what you said is normal. I'm saying it's not, and is assbackwards and those people don't know what they are doing. Again, you should find new dive shops or circles of dive friends