Building a reg for travel?

[NTJB]

Ready parts kits availability for self service and also service in a shop found around the world can be hard. Option one is mailing them off, or mailing the first stage(s) and doing the seconds yourself. Option two is survey your local shops and buy what they service, which is unlikely to support self service; what that might be depends. Poseidon might get you both, it depends on the shop, but tbone is our expert on them, and they are a specific 'taste'. Older models, particularly of ScubaPro or AquaLung, often have kit availability, see in particular: Store | Vintage Double Hose. These vintage second stages are still common today or models that are close children of them, 109/156/G250v. Many vintage seconds are also metal, which is not light. The older firsts are harder to find, and certainly not new.

Yes, if you will never service your own reg and can not readily mail it in for service for what ever reason, you are better with a reg your local shop can service. Or keeping a backup set of in the box to switch to when you feel the current ones need service. Selling the ones needing service, or mailing them off for service.

Streamlined openwater setup:
- - Streamlined OW | Dive Gear Express®, for one distributors packaging of severals regs that way.
The norm there is 40 and 22" hoses.

Scribble might save a few oz's over the Signature. Wt. Difference between Signature and Scribble first stages

I've got ScubaPro and Deep6 Signature firsts and seconds. I expect either would still serve no matter what tech I move into.

Thanks, I was just discussing with a friend and the topic of serviceability came up...I suppose in the end you would want a brand you could get serviced locally, that might be the biggest factor.

That brought me to a few new options like the Apex Flight and the ScubaPro Mk25...the attraction to ScubaPro is simply that it's everywhere and thus if anything were to go wrong, chances are I can have it fixed quickly wherever I am and not ruin a dive holiday.

How reliable are the 90-degree swivel joints for the secondaries?

 

[MichaelMc]

That brought me to a few new options like the Apex Flight and the ScubaPro Mk25...the attraction to ScubaPro is simply that it's everywhere and thus if anything were to go wrong, chances are I can have it fixed quickly wherever I am and not ruin a dive holiday.

The more common brands can be serviced by many shops, though shops tend to focus on a few brands and only service what they sell. Some that service, send it to a different shop, as they have no techs themselves. Some dive operators may not service at all, as they may not sell gear, just rent gear to divers and run boats. Whether any service gets done by the start of diving the next morning is rather unlikely. So it depends on how quickly you want the holiday saved, and how remote you are. Will ''we can have that for you in a few days" be fine?

The best way to ensure the dive holiday is to have a spare 1st and a spare second that you can swap in as needed. Or be fine renting as backup. Then get the one that is down serviced. Yes, that local service is easier or only possible if it is one of the more common brands internationally. But it might not be the next day, or that week.

I've a Mk25 Evo. It performs great. It also involves more worry about keeping it clean than my diagram firsts, which I can not tell a performance difference on. It's all trade offs. SP Mk17 is sealed, though not a turret or 5th port. Apeks DST is a sealed turret option.

 

[tbone1004]

@NTJB
my recommendation is always to begin with the end in mind. That said, there are a couple of caveats to that. One is with DIN vs yoke where if you plan on travelling and renting tanks and don't live in Europe, then even though the end will have you diving DIN, the now makes yoke a much better decision. Changing a first stage to DIN is maybe $60 for the conversion kit.
The other is not jumping into doubles/sidemount/ccr immediately because single tank is more than sufficient. You won't "waste" anything buy going with a single tank yoke rig. Where you can screw up, is getting the wrong BCD, or the wrong regulator setup and then you have to rebuy gear. I don't know very many technical divers that don't own a single tank rig *sidemount is the exception there where they only ever dive sidemount*, nor do I know many that don't have either a dedicated yoke first stage or at least the conversion kit to swap one of their main regulators over.

Both HOG and Deep6 are manufactured in Taiwan and anyone who can service an Apeks reg can service a HOG or Deep6 in their sleep. Hell when HOG first came out, there were no repair manuals so we all used Apeks manuals to service them. It was YEARS before the manuals were out. Whether a tech WILL service them is a different story. As cheap as the tools are though, I think it's a no brainer to self-service these regs.

On the hose, watch the video that @MichaelMc linked to. They are all "primary donate" paradigms so the short hose is on a necklace/suicide strap around your neck. I dive that configuration ALMOST exclusively. The exception to that is when I dive a double hose regulator or CCR where primary donate is not really an option.

The scribble is only going to be a couple of ounces lighter. Deep6 doesn't post their weights, but using the Apeks DS4 and DST as comparable. With those, the DS4 is only 39g lighter than the DST or about 1.5oz. That's irrelevant.

I have a LOT of opinions on the BS about global service availability which is why I recommend everyone buy a doubles regulator set because the cost of that extra first stage is going to pay for itself the first time you're on a dive boat and have a HP seat blow. You may get lucky and end up in a rental regulator set so you don't miss a dive, but you are going to have to pay for the rental AND if you want to get your reg serviced on that trip, pay out the a$$ for an overnight rush job. Alternatively you carry an extra 1.5lb hung of brass and swap it over to the other first stage then service when you get home. That hunk of brass is light enough to fit in your pocket when you get on a plane and no one will be the wiser.

I do not recommend the Apeks flight series, nor any other regulator designed to save ounces of product weight. Your regs should be in carryon anyway or more ideally in your personal carryon bag. If you are in a place where those are weighed, then I would shed the weight elsewhere, but most of the time a backpack isn't weighed...

 

[NTJB]

@NTJB
my recommendation is always to begin with the end in mind. That said, there are a couple of caveats to that. One is with DIN vs yoke where if you plan on travelling and renting tanks and don't live in Europe, then even though the end will have you diving DIN, the now makes yoke a much better decision. Changing a first stage to DIN is maybe $60 for the conversion kit.
The other is not jumping into doubles/sidemount/ccr immediately because single tank is more than sufficient. You won't "waste" anything buy going with a single tank yoke rig. Where you can screw up, is getting the wrong BCD, or the wrong regulator setup and then you have to rebuy gear. I don't know very many technical divers that don't own a single tank rig *sidemount is the exception there where they only ever dive sidemount*, nor do I know many that don't have either a dedicated yoke first stage or at least the conversion kit to swap one of their main regulators over.

Both HOG and Deep6 are manufactured in Taiwan and anyone who can service an Apeks reg can service a HOG or Deep6 in their sleep. Hell when HOG first came out, there were no repair manuals so we all used Apeks manuals to service them. It was YEARS before the manuals were out. Whether a tech WILL service them is a different story. As cheap as the tools are though, I think it's a no brainer to self-service these regs.

On the hose, watch the video that @MichaelMc linked to. They are all "primary donate" paradigms so the short hose is on a necklace/suicide strap around your neck. I dive that configuration ALMOST exclusively. The exception to that is when I dive a double hose regulator or CCR where primary donate is not really an option.

The scribble is only going to be a couple of ounces lighter. Deep6 doesn't post their weights, but using the Apeks DS4 and DST as comparable. With those, the DS4 is only 39g lighter than the DST or about 1.5oz. That's irrelevant.

I have a LOT of opinions on the BS about global service availability which is why I recommend everyone buy a doubles regulator set because the cost of that extra first stage is going to pay for itself the first time you're on a dive boat and have a HP seat blow. You may get lucky and end up in a rental regulator set so you don't miss a dive, but you are going to have to pay for the rental AND if you want to get your reg serviced on that trip, pay out the a$$ for an overnight rush job. Alternatively you carry an extra 1.5lb hung of brass and swap it over to the other first stage then service when you get home. That hunk of brass is light enough to fit in your pocket when you get on a plane and no one will be the wiser.

I do not recommend the Apeks flight series, nor any other regulator designed to save ounces of product weight. Your regs should be in carryon anyway or more ideally in your personal carryon bag. If you are in a place where those are weighed, then I would shed the weight elsewhere, but most of the time a backpack isn't weighed...

That makes sense. I've unfortunately bought a BCD that is expensive and single tank only but I do really love it and I think I will be diving it for years to come. I imagine I'd go with sidemount doubles if I get there but at the moment I don't know anything. I've watched that video, and a whole series of others from ISE, which I found really helpful. I have a good idea of what lengths to go with now and will plan to go with the "primary donate" philosophy where the primary is on a long hose. Do you have any personal views on miflex vs rubber hoses? The numerous recalls and reports on issues with miflex and other flexible hoses are a bit worrying. I've also had friends suggest I use rubber on everything and use a thin flexible hose on the SPG (but if the SPG has a leak, wouldn't that compromise the air supply anyway?). On the other hand, I noticed all Apex regs come with braided hose now, so maybe the risk is overstated? If I go with the Deep 6 regs, I will likely just use the hoses they supply until I need to replace them--I don't see much value in buying new hoses when they will provide specified length hoses on order.

Is your suggestion to buy a spare first stage and carry it with me on travels? That makes sense but, at that point, I feel I might as well kit out the first stage entirely and have my girlfriend use it, which then of course would lead to buying 3 first stages, so we have a spare...and down the hole I go...

I've been expanding my search to ScubaPro and other regulators. Noted on the weight and the item being a carry-on, that makes sense to be although I did like the idea of having everything in my check-in bag for convenience. You are right that, at the end of the day, we are splitting ounces/grams here for the most part. I did see that on the SP Mk25, there is an LP port that is on the top of the turret--ISE has a video on them using that one to route the long hose primary, which seems clever as it points downward from the back and thus loops nicely under the arm. I'm not sure if that's enough to warrant choosing the Mk25 but it seemed like a clever set up.

 

[MichaelMc]

5th port: most every turret reg has a 5th port on the end of the turret standard or as an option. I can not remember one that does not, beyond some vintage ones. In particular Deep6 has a 5th port standard on the end. For DST you may have to ask for it. Getting good regs will let them serve for tech. 5th port/turrets are the most flexible in how they are used.

On miflex, one issue is some of the woven outer covers chafe on the wetsuit or skin. On risk, the issue is the inner material. Most are being careful about using the proper type, but you have to check and I am not up on who has what. Also some of the related super flex rubber hoses you want to check what inner material was used as well.
Hoses for SCUBA | Dive Gear Express® FAQ item about inner material.
Alert Diver | Invisible Crystals DAN article on issue
A recent-ish thread on Deep6 hoses in particular: Deep6 with MiFlex vs Rubber Hoses
(HP leaks take a long time to drain the tank as the reg has only a tiny hole to the hose. HP Hose failures)

Dive the BP/W you have for singles and do not worry about that. If you go tech, the cost of a new plate and harness will be lost in the noise.

 

[tbone1004]

@NTJB I'm not 100% positive, but I believe the ghost is a standard backplate and wing. You'll be able to use the backplate and harness with doubles down the road. Combo wings for singles and doubles are not a good idea. You did not make an error in purchasing IMO.

I don't buy braided hoses. I have some that were given to me that I'll use until they wear out, but the "weight savings" and "packing benefits" that they talk about are really negligible IMO. Long hoses in particular should be rubber since the braided hoses rip hair out of the back of your neck.

I would recommend buying a "doubles kit" for you, and if you also get a set for your girlfriend, then get a normal singles kit. You are expressing wanting to go down the tech path in the future, so buy the whole reg set now which is cheaper than buying the extra first stage later. Technically you can use all of the same hoses with singles and doubles. The inflator hose is the only one that really should change as it needs to be longer than a single tank rig, but the wings usually come with an appropriate length hose.

The Deep6 Signature has the same port configuration as a MK25. I route the long hose on the end of the turret as well

 

[NTJB]

5th port: most every turret reg has a 5th port on the end of the turret standard or as an option. I can not remember one that does not, beyond some vintage ones. In particular Deep6 has a 5th port standard on the end. For DST you may have to ask for it. Getting good regs will let them serve for tech. 5th port/turrets are the most flexible in how they are used.

On miflex, one issue is some of the woven outer covers chafe on the wetsuit or skin. On risk, the issue is the inner material. Most are being careful about using the proper type, but you have to check and I am not up on who has what. Also some of the related super flex rubber hoses you want to check what inner material was used as well.
Hoses for SCUBA | Dive Gear Express® FAQ item about inner material.
Alert Diver | Invisible Crystals DAN article on issue
A recent-ish thread on Deep6 hoses in particular: Deep6 with MiFlex vs Rubber Hoses
(HP leaks take a long time to drain the tank as the reg has only a tiny hole to the hose. HP Hose failures)

Dive the BP/W you have for singles and do not worry about that. If you go tech, the cost of a new plate and harness will be lost in the noise.

Very interesting reading, thank you for linking that! It seems the rubber hoses will be just fine, I'm not that picky and it seems the braided hoses are more trouble than they might be worth to me.

@NTJB I'm not 100% positive, but I believe the ghost is a standard backplate and wing. You'll be able to use the backplate and harness with doubles down the road. Combo wings for singles and doubles are not a good idea. You did not make an error in purchasing IMO.

I don't buy braided hoses. I have some that were given to me that I'll use until they wear out, but the "weight savings" and "packing benefits" that they talk about are really negligible IMO. Long hoses in particular should be rubber since the braided hoses rip hair out of the back of your neck.

I would recommend buying a "doubles kit" for you, and if you also get a set for your girlfriend, then get a normal singles kit. You are expressing wanting to go down the tech path in the future, so buy the whole reg set now which is cheaper than buying the extra first stage later. Technically you can use all of the same hoses with singles and doubles. The inflator hose is the only one that really should change as it needs to be longer than a single tank rig, but the wings usually come with an appropriate length hose.

The Deep6 Signature has the same port configuration as a MK25. I route the long hose on the end of the turret as well

Thanks again--I had read somewhere the Ghost is not compatible with doubles, but maybe replacing the STA and wing is doable. In any case, not a huge concern at the moment.

My worry about buying two regulators now is that, by the time I get into tec diving and my own gear, there will likely be better regulators at that point available (I am realistically not starting any sort of tec diving training for at least another couple of years if all goes well--I'd rather spend the time I have diving my single tank and getting really good at it first). That said, how often do the first stages fail? I've only ever rented and never had a failure. On the other than, Deep 6 claims their regs are good for any sort of diving (rec, tec & cave) so maybe an extra will be just fine down the road no matter where I end up.

In contrast with the SP MK25 (which seems much more popular and easy to spot in the wild), what are your thoughts between the Deep 6 setup and the SP MK25 with, say, the S600 second stages? The more I look into these, the more I'm wondering I should get a brand that I can have serviced overseas.

 

[divad]

.....

 

[Michael Jastrzebski]

My God, so many words...
Built for travel? I needed a “travel” reg and I just picked up one from a shelf.

 

[tbone1004]

@NTJB there has not been any significant improvement in regulator technology in maybe 30 years? Step changes sure, but the Apeks Scubapro Mk25 is not appreciably different than the MK10 that was released decades ago. Poseidon still sells the Cyklon which hasn't changed since 1958.... Apeks hasn't changed their first stages in at least 20 years.
With Scubapro, the regulator parts from the 109 which is 50ish years old *released 1969* are compatible with the G260 which is brand new.
The Deep6 regs are proven miles and miles back in caves, well into full trimix depths, and are based off of a proven design. There's not going to be anything significant in terms of regulator development in 10 years that will make your Deep6 regulators obsolete. I've only ever dove them in a cave, on a scooter, going a LONG way back. I've never taken them to trimix depths, only 100ft in those caves, but I'd have no issue taking them to 100m.

First stage failure is unpredictable in terms of frequency. If you own an IP gauge *which every regulator owner should*, then you can pretty reliably predict through IP when/if a regulator is going to fail, but it can still start creeping randomly in the middle of a trip. The question of bringing the spare ultimately comes down to your aversion to using rental regulators.

The MK25 has been around for a hot minute and is sold globally by probably the largest brand in the industry. The Deep6 Signature is a newcomer and only been around for 3-4years. The marketshare is quite small so you won't see many of them yet, but it's growing. Why do you fear that you won't be able to get it serviced overseas? If you search on here, there are myriads of posts talking about various peoples opinions on getting things serviced while you're travelling, but I don't think you'll have any issue getting those regulators serviced where you live. Keep the service kits and manuals with you, go to a shop that services Apeks regs, and ask nicely.