No knee skills for DM

[TMHeimer]

No it's a bad thing to teach on the knees. By that I mean to only teach on the knees. I prefer not to, but if a student is having issues, we break the skill down. Sort out the mechanics of the skill first, and then when that's mastered, complete the skill NB

Trying to get the student to learn a skill NB can be frustrating for them - given they're task loading.

Bite size chunks, always bite size chunks

OK, I kind of misread you. I think your idea of sorting out the mechanics of a skill while on knees for a student who is having issues with the skill is a good idea. And then as you say, have him/her complete the skill in NB.
Though I agree with this, there are quite a few veteran instructors on SB who will disagree, saying that it is just as easy to teach/do a skill neutrally than on knees.
You're saying that for someone having issues with a skill, doing it neutrally adds to the task loading. I agree. Many don't.
As you say, bite size chunks--makes sense to me, anyway.

When I said that teaching a course kneeling isn't the end of the world, I admit I am looking at this from the perspective of someone who was comfortable in water to begin with--decades of snorkeling and shallow free-diving, as it is now called.
When I started as a DM I guess I assumed everyone would do well with buoyancy regardless of learning those skills on knees-- because it's not rocket science to get used to the amount of air you add/release from the BC. But, I did find out that there are quite a few OW students who start off the course uncomfortable even being in water, let along submerged. I still think that if all OW students started out with a good water backround and the dived regularly after certification (like all the 20 or so staff we had), we wouldn't be having so many threads about teaching neutrally. It wouldn't matter all that much.

 

[chillyinCanada]

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[giovyledzep]

No, there's really no excuse to ever make your students kneel.

I'm aware there must be hundreds of threads where this is discussed but just in brief, how does one go about never making students kneel?

I had a conversation with my instructor the other day. She's fond of NB and is a tech diver, but maintains it's impossible or even dangerous to skip the kneeling for the first dives, especially in short entry-level courses.

 

[MichaelMc]

just in brief, how does one go about never making students kneel?

The methods mentioned include:
- Mask skills first in 1' kiddy pool or tub of water.
- Dial weight/trim on surface floating horizontal or kicking about, then 1', 2', 5'.
- Reg and mask drills first floating horizontal on surface.
- Drills swimming idly about mid water, til they can do while still.
- Waiting time spent floating, sub surface or mid water gaining experience, not planted.
- I haven't seen it explicit, but horizontal, buoyant and stuck to surface is very stable.
- Never introducing them to planting on the bottom.
- If they have to, touch it with a finger, or just a fin tip.
- Not having 8 students you need to keep in line/safe and an eye on at once.
- OW drill hang bar(s) between float lines to stay together if surge/current warrant it.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'm aware there must be hundreds of threads where this is discussed but just in brief, how does one go about never making students kneel?

I had a conversation with my instructor the other day. She's fond of NB and is a tech diver, but maintains it's impossible or even dangerous to skip the kneeling for the first dives, especially in short entry-level courses.

Impossible? Dangerous? Hoo boy, I couldn't disagree more.

I describe how I used to weight students for pool sessions here: Never on the knees: Open Water Scuba Classes | Facebook

1. Have students lay flat face down in their scuba kits in chest deep water, but no weights.
2. As they relax and are ready, hand them weights in small increments to hold at the locations in which weight will be stored (waist for weight belt, or next to weight pockets). Because they are holding the weights, they do not scull. Because they are given weights gradually, they will slowly sink. This process is smooth. And because they are holding weights, they cannot be sculling with their hands.
3. Repeat until they sink slowly on exhale and float midwater, sinking and rising with a normal breath, staying off the bottom and not corking to the surface.
4. If they are foot heavy, move some weight to trim pockets until they are horizontal. You may have to attach weights to the shoulder straps using bungee cords (http://scubatechphilippines.com/scuba_blog/sidemount-diving-harness-weight-attachment/).
5. In the event that they are head heavy (never seen this, but won't rule it out) move the cylinder down slightly.
Doing this after the swim test allows pool time to be used more efficiently as no one is waiting. Students who are properly weighted can continue to practice depth control via their breath, under the watchful eye of a certified assistant, as the instructor(s) and any remaining certified assistants, get students properly weighted.
While students wait their turn to perform skills, they are subconsciously programming themselves to control their depth using their breath. This is an effective use of students time

I read a comment by Mark Powell on FB how he focuses on getting students comfortable in the water. IIRC, he said he worked on skin diving skills and finning (think frog kicking on your back so if your knees pop above the surface, you know you are breaking at the waist). So I adopted that. I had already started the above back when I still taught for PADI, but his ideas helped my students becoming comfortable much more quickly. Then there are the mask/snorkel/breathing exercises I received from @Peter Guy that I describe here: Simple exercises for students not completely comfortable with having their faces in the water | Facebook.

Other instructors taught me how to keep my students off their knees. And there are instructors who have had the fortunate training such that they began teaching this way immediately after passing their IE. I know one instructor who never placed a student on the knees. Not one.

I don't see how it is dangerous either. I feel that overweighting is far more dangerous. Properly weighted students do not crater or cork. Overweighted ones do.

 

[decompression]

Here’s a vid of some techniques we use.....

 

[Allison Finch]

If you can't maintain neutral buoyancy to demonstrate skills, you aren't good enough to be a DM.

I'm so tired of training being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

 

[TMHeimer]

If you can't maintain neutral buoyancy to demonstrate skills, you aren't good enough to be a DM.

I'm so tired of training being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

That's something I agree with, though I think it is a bit of a blanket statement. You must remember that like myself, I'm sure the vast majority of today's DMs were first taught those 6 or so skills kneeling, demonstrated them to classes kneeling, and were told by instructors that they did a good job. So, we'll never know if we were "good enough" to be a DM. Being retired from DMing, I'll never know if I can doff & don the unit while neutral as there is no reason for me to find out.

 

[MichaelMc]

Being retired from DMing, I'll never know if I can doff & don the unit while neutral as there is no reason for me to find out.

So doff & don neutral buoyant is a 'I haven't checked' unknown for you.

It reads like a Padi OW pool skill these days. CW5:

"Remove, replace, adjust and secure the scuba kit with minimal assistance in water too deep in which to stand, without losing control of buoyancy, body position, and depth."​

Depending on whether you think "without losing control of buoyancy, ..., and depth" stretches to cover "negative on the bottom". Or not.

You might be diving dry, but it's been straightforward in my 15/10/5 farmer john at 10-15' on a calm day. With AL40 doubles, 10 lb. on rig (so really net 6 lb. with the tanks), 12 on weight belt.

ETA: I'm happy with my performance against the custureri video below. After removing and holding I've been setting mine on the sand and hovering free, then pick up, hold, don. Three times so far in the ocean. I'll continue doing it as a check when I'm in backmount.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'm so tired of training being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

It is an extremely frustrating conversation at times. After all, @boulderjohn, @Peter Guy and others published that article in Q2 of 2011 (almost 9 years ago), we just got to having two skills in IEs that if done NB, you can get a 5 yet you can still pass while on the knees. I passed my IE just over 4 years ago, and I was not yet aware of that article. I am disappointed that over 4 years after the article was published, none of it was incorporated into my IDC or IE. None of it. I'm also disappointed that the other mainstream agencies (exception SNSI, RAID) haven't grabbed onto that concept and required ITs to teach new instructors to teach NB/T and that all instructors teach that way. Do they all just sit on the sidelines and follow what PADI does? I'm hoping that RAID/SNSI get a lot of marketshare as a result and force the industry to follow suit.

I know a couple instructors who have never placed a student on their knees. If someone with zero experience as an instructor can do it, what excuse do the rest of us have? I think instructors rush to start on skills in the pool instead of beginning with comfort. The way I was weighting students, even the nervous ones were either comforted or distracted that they had my entire attention while I was giving them weights until they sank on exhale and could remain underwater. It was gradual yet still quick. And they just floated fairly horizontally in the shallow end of the pool, rising and falling with each breath, quite relaxed.

I'll never know if I can doff & don the unit while neutral as there is no reason for me to find out.

I once helped out an instructor with a class that was held in a small pool, so everyone was on the knees. The instructor had me demo UW scuba kit removal and replacement. I did it NB/T and it was monkey see, monkey do which was awesome. While the students all had great difficulty doing the skill off the bottom (it was their first one that they performed NB/T), they were able to complete the skill. With more practice, they would have become proficient.

So wherever you set the bar, students will work towards that. If they think that's normal what you are showing them, then there isn't the stress.

I feel a lot of instructors use on the knees as a crutch. In order to place students on their knees, you have to overweight them. When these instructors move to NB, do they reweight them? I doubt it. So now the students have to deal with extra gas in their BCD that will expand/contract with depth changes, adding to their load. I just shake my head at that.

Anyway, here's this skill being done by @custureri : . Please note he's doing this in the open ocean and is dealing with a bit of current.