No knee skills for DM

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I would think a good instructor would go beyond the most basic requirements of any certification. My Rescue cert also include the stress test on the bottom as well as the drop gear at 9 meters and retrieve from the surface. Calm, Control, and Confident. I feel like all these things made me more prepared for the crazy sh*t that can go awry under water. I am grateful for the extra measures my instructor went to to train me properly.

I'm curious with what agency you took rescue. Also what was your exposure protection like. I'm going to cork in my dry suit if I take off my BP/W with a steel tank and send that to the surface. I'd be racing it there.

 

[TMHeimer]

I disagree with this....and I'm not just sayin this on the "be neutral bandwagon."

My wife's first OW dive after cert was in Roatan. We swam over a wall when she got water in her mask, so she immediately swung down to her knees to do the skill. She plummeted about 10ft before I caught her, and that's because I was nearly sitting ON her and was more focused on her than the dive.

Other skills, such as reg recovery (the swing-your-arm-in-a-cirlce maneuver) are notably easier and more useful while neutral. I'd argue that the reg recovery skill is completely useless on your knees as it puts your reg out of position.

Fair enough. I will say that I never gave a thought of finding a place to kneel to clear my mask (from dive no.1), although I have heard of people doing that. Same with reg recovery.
I had snorkeled for decades before doing OW and had much & varied "water" experience.

 

[TMHeimer]

Instructors don't have the authority to override or make up PADI standards. If something is not specified in the standards, the instructor has no right to say it MUST be done this or that way. If he does he should definitely be reported to PADI. He might suggest you do it a way or another, plus factoring in the human ego factor of "i know better, you're getting punished for not listening to me" it might be in your best interest to just follow his advice, but he shouldn't be able to compel you to do it a way that is not specified in the standards.

Yes agree. An instructor I was assisting years ago said she doesn't allow "drown proofing" on the 10/15 minute "float" tests.
No, I didn't report her as she was a fine instructor and I wanted to keep my DM job.
I'm sure this happens a lot. Apparently NAUI instructors have a lot more leeway in what they can require, which is fine. PADI tends to be a bit vague on things at times, so whatever gets the skill done as described in the Standards should be the only thing required. Adding other "suggestions" is a great idea, but students shouldn't be graded on them or it's a violation.

 

[BoundForElsewhere]

I'm curious with what agency you took rescue. Also what was your exposure protection like. I'm going to cork in my dry suit if I take off my BP/W with a steel tank and send that to the surface. I'd be racing it there.

PADI but I think my instructor was just a very conscientious teacher.
I was wearing a lavacore. It was only 9 meters

 

[victorzamora]

Fair enough. I will say that I never gave a thought of finding a place to kneel to clear my mask (from dive no.1), although I have heard of people doing that. Same with reg recovery.
I had snorkeled for decades before doing OW and had much & varied "water" experience.

She wasn't looking for a place to kneel, it was worse: It was muscle memory. Because of that muscle memory, she did what she was taught. Kneeling was part of how she cleared a mask....it was all she knew.

It also wasn't just her....I've seen it with dozens of divers. Teaching people the skills flat and neutral sets them up to do the skills "properly" for the real world. There's no reason to not practice like you play.

 

[TMHeimer]

She wasn't looking for a place to kneel, it was worse: It was muscle memory. Because of that muscle memory, she did what she was taught. Kneeling was part of how she cleared a mask....it was all she knew.

It also wasn't just her....I've seen it with dozens of divers. Teaching people the skills flat and neutral sets them up to do the skills "properly" for the real world. There's no reason to not practice like you play.

Dozens- wow. I guess the only difference at all is the angle your face is at. I guess I just figured that while horizontal I'm looking more toward the bottom than straight ahead like when kneeling, so I had to adjust my angle to clear the mask. Regarding the muscle memory, I can see that. Considering that, I do agree it makes more sense to teach it neutrally as doing so will ellimate that problem for all.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I do agree it makes more sense to teach it neutrally as doing so will ellimate that problem for all.

This is what I and many others are trying to convince people. I know I rant and am controversial, but all it took was a desire to improve and a willingness to try other people's teaching methods (most borrowed from GUE/UTD folks) that got me to where I am today. We are not performing brain surgery here. We are simply scuba instructors who have to manage people's mental and physical comforts while getting them acclimated to being in the underwater world.

I should never have been allowed to become an instructor without being able to teach this way. My own OW courses are open to any instructor/DM who wants to see how I do things. I welcome that actually.

 

[BoundForElsewhere]

This is what I and many others are trying to convince people. I know I rant and am controversial, but all it took was a desire to improve and a willingness to try other people's teaching methods (most borrowed from GUE/UTD folks) that got me to where I am today. We are not performing brain surgery here. We are simply scuba instructors who have to manage people's mental and physical comforts while getting them acclimated to being in the underwater world.

I should never have been allowed to become an instructor without being able to teach this way. My own OW courses are open to any instructor/DM who wants to see how I do things. I welcome that actually.

Open season on stalking. Sweet.
If all instructors taught the same thing, how would any be better than others. Personally, I am grateful for the "extra credit" skills I learned during Rescue. I am a better diver for it and, frankly, isn't that what you guys are supposed to do?

I have a lot of respect for the great instructors I have met, stalked, and admired on SB. There is an incredible wealth of knowledge on here, both intellectual and experiential. It is much appreciated by us juvies.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Open season on stalking. Sweet.

lol

If all instructors taught the same thing, how would any be better than others.

Some people will say all instructors will teach you the same thing (not true). Others will say it is the instructor, not the agency (also not true).

Most consumers can't tell the difference as instructors/shops often do a bad job at marketing. Why spend the extra money/time when an instructor/shop tell me that they can certify me in 2 days? Easy and cheap. And they tell me it is just as good.

I wouldn't mind if everyone elevated their game. That'd eliminate the gap year kids on the zero to hero programs (I don't blame them, but I do blame the agencies for supporting this). If we are all equal, then we won't be bickering about agencies or teaching methods. I'll never see that day, but I sure would like it to happen.

Personally, I am grateful for the "extra credit" skills I learned during Rescue. I am a better diver for it and, frankly, isn't that what you guys are supposed to do?

Not exactly. PADI is pretty strict about requiring additional skills in their courses. If you got hurt going after your scuba kit on the surface, the instructor would have no agency backing.

I have a lot of respect for the great instructors I have met, stalked, and admired on SB. There is an incredible wealth of knowledge on here, both intellectual and experiential. It is much appreciated by us juvies.

I believe that things are changing. It just isn't changing fast enough. I really don't get why instructors at all levels can't demonstrate skills NB/T when so many open water divers are able to perform those same skills NB/T (and if taught, all of them would). I don't care how long they've been teaching or how many certifications they have given. That says nothing about quality. You can do a bad job for decades if you place zero effort in self-improvement. And there are fairly new instructors who teach NB/T and they are doing an awesome job. They just are not entrenched in the old ways. That's the only difference.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

My CD had us do all our skills NB starting from the DM course. Once at the IE, I was the only one in my group that did my skills NB. It was perfectly acceptable and even got the IE to pull me aside and ask me if I was a tech diver (the IE was also a tech IT) and said it showed when I told him yes. But I also told him it was my CD that demanded we be NB in the DM training as my first tech course came after that.


So do them neutral if you want. Although I agree with the others that on gear exchange, it is much easier to do kneeling or with fin tips down. We started neutral but then went to a tips down position.

Best of success and let us know how it goes.