Video from a Training Dive with John Chatterton

[flymolo]

I'm not really qualified to have any opinion. All I would say is it's worth considering the difference between theoretical what-ifs, and the actual things which have killed people doing technical dives. We all know that breathing the wrong gas kills people, but what actually leads to that mistake being made and to it being made for long enough to have consequences? I believe Chatterton's methods descend from the experiences he's had, and to a certain extent the bodies he's had to recover.



Thanks so much! That's very kind and makes me want to make more videos.

I don't believe it's really a question of how long: it only takes a few moments of breathing the wrong gas for it to be fatal. It's by far the easiest mistake to make, yet the most preventable (i.e. by having a robust gas switch protocol that involves a buddy verifying your mix before the reg goes in your mouth).

 

[Zack-Bloom]

I don't believe it's really a question of how long: it only takes a few moments of breathing the wrong gas for it to be fatal.

Maybe someone can chime in with research, dive fatality reports, or even anecdotal experiences with regard to this? I don't actually know of a story where in a few moments someone died breathing the wrong gas, but I would love to learn about them. Ironically the TDI site, in explaining how important gas switch discipline is, cites an example where someone breathed 50% O2 at 200ft for ten minutes and was apparently fine (not that I would recommend that...).

 

[Scuba-74]

OK, will watch the video, but I guess what I'm saying is that you are claiming that - for example - kneeling is bad when diving, as a general principal. All I'm saying is that has to be put into context.

There are lots of times when I need to kneel on the bottom or crawl through a tight space to get the shot. I'm pretty sure that JC couldn't have done what he did on the U869 and the Doria if they had to at all times be completely horizontal in perfect trim with their hands out in front of them. If you make perfect trim the goal of diving, then yeah, any deviation from that falls short and will be seen as "not OK". But not everybody dives like that, and it's not just because they are incompetent divers.

Couldn't agree more.

I have a feeling if there was enough demand for Chatterton teaching "advanced peak performance buoyancy", he would do that too, no problem. But he specifically focuses on techniques that his students came to learn from him, which is a sign of good, focused instruction to me.

 

[rddvet]

If your goal is to teach real wreck divers, I'm not sure it's realistic to teach wreck diving in a way which doesn't align with how it's actually done. That is the attitude which made all of the class material I've read so divorced from real diving.

That statement can really be a problem and get you in a lot of trouble depending on how it's meant. I don't do much wreck diving so I won't talk about lines vs no lines. Regardless, I have several friends that have said something similar about cave diving. They tell me that what's taught in class isn't "real cave diving". They try to justify things such as blind jumps in well known parts of the cave because if you've been there enough you know that part of the cave and that the cave divers they know that have been diving for many years or "real cave divers" do it with no problem. What they're not seeing is that's complacency, not how it's done in the real world. Why am I addressing that statement? Because I see an instructor in your video that's letting things go that never should be allowed at that level. That makes me start to wonder if when he's teaching "real diving" or is he just teaching you lazy complacent diving. Based on the video I think there's a good chance it's the complacent way he's teaching you because that's what's "worked for him for years" (as my cave friends tried to convince me). At this stage of your diving, I think there's alot that you don't know you don't know. So what may seem like "real diving" may actually be really dangerous.

Again, I'm not trying to pick on you. It's John Chatterton that is the problem in the video. When I was first learning technical diving years ago I was taught some things I took as gospel. Now years later I shake my head at the ridiculousness. It would be great to see what you think about this video after 150 wreck dives under your belt.

Out of curiosity did you guys talk about the merits of doing that depth of dive on a helium enriched gas? Air at that depth inside a wreck doesn't seem very safe. I would hope at least it would have been discussed as not ideal by your instructor. Unfortunately alot of old school instructors think it's OK.

And did everyone pass?

 

[cerich]

Maybe someone can chime in with research, dive fatality reports, or even anecdotal experiences with regard to this? I don't actually know of a story where in a few moments someone died breathing the wrong gas, but I would love to learn about them. Ironically the TDI site, in explaining how important gas switch discipline is, cites an example where someone breathed 50% O2 at 200ft for ten minutes and was apparently fine (not that I would recommend that...).

an hypoxic mix will present much faster with a poor outcome generally than oxygen toxicity.

 

[rddvet]

Couldn't agree more.

I have a feeling if there was enough demand for Chatterton teaching "advanced peak performance buoyancy", he would do that too, no problem. But he specifically focuses on techniques that his students came to learn from him, which is a sign of good, focused instruction to me.

Cool. So you're on the it's ok to kneel to perform basic early technical skills bandwagon? Specifically because they didn't come to him to learn to shoot an smb or drop a stage but to penetrate a wreck? That's scary. There should be a certain level of skill required by any class at that level. Kneeling to perform a task shows a lack of skill. I am on the bandwagon that kneeling for skills should be strictly forbidden from OW classes up. Apparently agencies feel the same way too since they're moving that way.

 

[CptTightPants21]

Maybe someone can chime in with research, dive fatality reports, or even anecdotal experiences with regard to this? I don't actually know of a story where in a few moments someone died breathing the wrong gas, but I would love to learn about them. Ironically the TDI site, in explaining how important gas switch discipline is, cites an example where someone breathed 50% O2 at 200ft for ten minutes and was apparently fine (not that I would recommend that...).

Ken Sallot has a story on his website of a friend who died a minute or two after a gas switch. This incident happened back in the 90's so it isn't completely clear, but it is believed he mislabeled a bottle and was breathing 100% helium rather than 100% O2. Not completely applicable, but an example.

Another, closer example, would be Carlos Fonseca who breathed from a stage bottle that contained 100% O2. He thought he was breathing air and took the bottle down to 85ft and was dead 6-8 min into the dive.

I will concede that a couple of breathes or limited time on the wrong bottle probably won't kill you. I think the issue with John's technique is what is safer? You plan on doing a buddy check on the gas anyway immediately after switching, right? Is it safer to do the buddy check before you put the bad gas in your mouth or after you put the bad gas in your mouth? If you don't plan on doing buddy checks that is one thing, if you actually do plan on doing buddy checks then John's technique is an increased risk (even if minor) for ABSOLUTELY no reason. Staying on your back gas a minute longer 100% won't kill you. Breathing the wrong gas for a minute might not kill you, but it is not 100% won't kill you.

 

[Scuba-74]

Cool. So you're on the it's ok to kneel to perform basic early technical skills bandwagon? Specifically because they didn't come to him to learn to shoot an smb or drop a stage but to penetrate a wreck? That's scary. There should be a certain level of skill required by any class at that level. Kneeling to perform a task shows a lack of skill. I am on the bandwagon that kneeling for skills should be strictly forbidden from OW classes up. Apparently agencies feel the same way too since they're moving that way.

If kneeling is done on purpose in order to save time and make sure students focus on the actual skills being taught, I don't necessarily see an issue with it.This would be like insisting that a renowned math professor and his students use neat handwriting and perfect punctuation on a whiteboard and in the notes during a lecture. You can do it, but you won't cover nearly as much material in the same amount of time.

If they were kneeling on live coral or a delicate wooden wreck, that would be a different story.

 

[Johanan]

I had the Advanced Wreck Theory and Tactics course with John, too. We also dove the Hydro Atlantic. Before the course I red the TDI AW course manual and filled the tests, which was a helpful supplement. Yet, John's course was interesting exactly because he did not stick to the book, but spoke a lot from his own experience end wisdom, sometimes departing pretty far from the text. My first degree was in chemistry and generally I appreciate an exact and structured approach to the material. However, the story telling was fascinating and informative, too. I recorded all John's lectures and come back to them once in a while. @BurhanMuntasser asked whether it was worth the investments and kept up to the promisses? Yes, I think, it was and it did.

BTW, John demonstrated quite evidently that the Advanced Wreck course is a different kind of animal than the Cave courses I had before that.

 

[Graeme Fraser]

Cool. So you're on the it's ok to kneel to perform basic early technical skills bandwagon? Specifically because they didn't come to him to learn to shoot an smb or drop a stage but to penetrate a wreck? That's scary. There should be a certain level of skill required by any class at that level. Kneeling to perform a task shows a lack of skill. I am on the bandwagon that kneeling for skills should be strictly forbidden from OW classes up. Apparently agencies feel the same way too since they're moving that way.

Bagging off from depth as you leave the wreck is standard practise for deco Channel dives over here, and yes you'd always expect to see this in neutral. Playing devils advocate, perhaps the rationale was it was quite large group, each shooting a blob, with the potential for a cluster. Just imagining novice tech divers, task loaded, well into deco, slightly staggered depths, trailing lines, flying DSMB's, etc. Just a thought.