Yes/No requirement for Med form

[pauldw]

Yes, there are steps to guarantee...

Stop saying that. ("Guarantee")

 

[JackD342]

Thanks to @JackD342 - I have a satisfactory answer to my OP.

I remain certain that 99% of instructors will accept a signed medical statement from an MD which will trump everything else - standards be darned. Ultimately, it’s simple - decision is up to an instructor to accept a student or not. If the instructor harbors any doubts, tell the student to complete all the questions then decide.

Well, not exactly up to individual instructors or shops to decide...

I had also asked PADI to include a rationale in that re-emphasis of Medical Statement standards, and a bit of an explanation of what the risks/hazards/liabilities would be of not gathering and storing the paperwork as described. I wish that had been included, but just because it wasn't does NOT mean that there might not be consequences to making up your own paperwork standard if the s**t hit the fan.

At the least if something were to happen, (think random lawsuit), you do not want any example(s) available (material to the issue at hand or not) that can demonstrate that you are in the habit of picking and choosing standards which standards you follow. It can add to the difficulty of a successful defense.

So yeah, anyone can do anything they like, until they are called on it and find out that it was a bad idea. Trying to impose/rationalize your personal opinion of what you think a standard should be onto the actuality of what it actually is, should be avoided. Worse yet is encouraging others to do the same and presenting it as okay.

 

[tridacna]

Well, not exactly up to individual instructors or shops to decide...

I had also asked PADI to include a rationale in that re-emphasis of Medical Statement standards, and a bit of an explanation of what the risks/hazards/liabilities would be of not gathering and storing the paperwork as described. I wish that had been included, but just because it wasn't does NOT mean that there might not be consequences to making up your own paperwork standard if the s**t hit the fan.

At the least if something were to happen, (think random lawsuit), you do not want any example(s) available (material to the issue at hand or not) that can demonstrate that you are in the habit of picking and choosing standards which standards you follow. It can add to the difficulty of a successful defense.

So yeah, anyone can do anything they like, until they are called on it and find out that it was a bad idea. Trying to impose/rationalize your personal opinion of what you think a standard should be onto the actuality of what it actually is, should be avoided. Worse yet is encouraging others to do the same and presenting it as okay.

Jack, I think that OLPC 3.0 will take care of this “issue”. All of our students now have to complete forms online - handwritten-student forms are going extinct in PADI land.

OLPC 3 does not allow students to omit answers and a YES automatically triggers a required medical clearance.

 

[JackD342]

Jack, I think that OLPC 3.0 will take care of this “issue”. All of our students now have to complete forms online - handwritten-student forms are going extinct in PADI land.

OLPC 3 does not allow students to omit answers and a YES automatically triggers a required medical clearance.

Well, that certainly helps enforce the requirement. But there will always be a paper based option rather than a mandatory digital system. At least as long as people and operations on the other side of the "digital divide" are still diving.

 

[jlcnuke]

Are you suggesting that an instructor could teach a new OW student, the very first time they are taken to open water, to ingest cake frosting while underwater? On behalf of all instructors, I'm flattered that you believe this would be reasonable... but we do have our limits.



"Guarantee" is an awfully strong word. Are you willing to bet your career as a physician on this kind of "guarantee"?



There is a simple solution: you can become a scuba instructor. You would be the perfect instructor to specialize in students with Type 1 diabetes (and maybe you could also take some with Type 2.) In the meantime, please try to understand that those of us tasked with the responsibility to keep our students safe while we have no real experience with the symptoms, effects or treatment of Type 1 diabetes will often decide that the safest option for those students is to not allow them to join our class. You can call it discrimination if you like, but it's discriminating in favor of safety.

If you're too ignorant of medical conditions to even identify the symptoms, I have absolutely no idea how you have the ego to determine you are knowledgeable enough to overrule an actual doctor's conclusion that their patient is safe to dive. I'm happy to not dive with any person (much less instructor) who's ego is so big as to decide that their complete lack of medical knowledge is more valid than an actual doctor's opinion regarding that doctor's patient's health and abilities. I can only imagine that a massive ego or complete fear of the unknown would be responsible for feeling so entitled as to over-rule an MD's medical opinion as a layperson without medical training, and I don't want to dive with anyone that is either that egotistical or that fearful.

You can hide behind the guise of safety, but the safety was determined by the doctor. But really you're just being the person who is too scared of what they don't understand to bother doing their job as far as I can tell.

 

[tridacna]

Well, that certainly helps enforce the requirement. But there will always be a paper based option rather than a mandatory digital system. At least as long as people and operations on the other side of the "digital divide" are still diving.

Politely disagree. Paper will disappear completely sooner than later. This is fodder for another argument though.

 

[mscmicrobiology]

Stop saying that. ("Guarantee")

If you were my patient I would actually take the time to explain why these simple medical strategies are a guarantee (i.e. works 100% of the time) they will not suffer hypoglycemia if they follow them. You have demonstrated already that that would be a complete waste of my time with you.

Let me put it into a simple diving analogy for you. If you (or someone else) does not turn on your air tank before diving I can “guarantee” you will not be getting air underwater. On the other hand, if you follow the simple strategy of turning on your own air tank just before every dive and testing your air supply then I can “guarantee” you can mitigate that specific issue. If you opt to use the “cake frosting” method by turning on your air underwater, after you discover the problem, that is a valid redundant solution for a more advanced diver.

 

[loosenit2]

If you're too ignorant of medical conditions to even identify the symptoms, I have absolutely no idea how you have the ego to determine you are knowledgeable enough to overrule an actual doctor's conclusion that their patient is safe to dive. I'm happy to not dive with any person (much less instructor) who's ego is so big as to decide that their complete lack of medical knowledge is more valid than an actual doctor's opinion regarding that doctor's patient's health and abilities. I can only imagine that a massive ego or complete fear of the unknown would be responsible for feeling so entitled as to over-rule an MD's medical opinion as a layperson without medical training, and I don't want to dive with anyone that is either that egotistical or that fearful.

You can hide behind the guise of safety, but the safety was determined by the doctor. But really you're just being the person who is too scared of what they don't understand to bother doing their job as far as I can tell.

I have no informed opinion about the OPs question but have enjoyed the conversation, very educational.

I wonder if perhaps many are placing to much emphasis on the absolute accuracy of a doctors opinion. Second opinions and malpractice suits are both very common occurrences, and doctors opinions can be easily manipulated by simply being dishonest or misrepresenting symptoms or facts. All human beings are fallible and some doctors are simply better than others. I also
wonder how many physicians are truly familiar with the demands or risks associated with scuba or would truly do the research before signing off on a simple medical exam, especially with the demands placed on them by hospitals and insurance companies to see more Patients in a day to maximize profits.

On the other hand a doctors signature does solve a liability issue for the instructor, a doctors signature does divert responsibility, and therefore liability.

 

[Diving Dubai]

If you're too ignorant of medical conditions to even identify the symptoms, I have absolutely no idea how you have the ego to determine you are knowledgeable enough to overrule an actual doctor's conclusion that their patient is safe to dive.

Well aren't you a piece of work given you're not (according to your profile) an instructor?

In PADI's case there is some small print in the Instructor manual

"Exception: Medical requirements may vary from country to country, consult your
PADI Office."

Also there is a nice Paragraph ;-

Risk Mitigation, Professional Judgment
and Responsibility
Conduct risk assessments for your student divers by evaluating
diver, environmental, equipment, physical and psychological
variables (as described in PADI’s Guide to Teaching) during PADI
courses and programs. Always err on the side of caution and
conservatism when making decisions and applying judgment in
your PADI programs.

So basically If I don't feel comfortable I don't have to teach

People lie! I've seen people tick no to fitness issues when they're blatantly obese, of No to being over 45 and smoke, when in fact their DoB says they're over 45 and they're outside having a smoke. (not that I have issues with smokes, only liars)

In my location, there is one Specialist and highly regarded Diver Doctor, whose recommendations I would follow without question.

However lots of physicians give the most minimal "examination" and have no dive knowledge. They are signing a bit of paper, it's me who's going into the water and might have to deal with the incident.

Me. I'm going to err on the side of caution, if someone else feels differently than they can teach that student.

 

[lowflyer]

If instructors are going to refuse to train a person who has a medical condition but who has been cleared by a doctor, then instructors, by the same logic, should have no medical issues either. So no obesity, hypertension, COPD, old age, high cholesterol, etc., etc.

After all, risk factors for heart attack and stroke in instructors increases the risk that a student at depth could be at risk if the instructor fades out. If an instructor with obesity, for example, won’t train a student with diabetes, he should look in the mirror.

What is good for the gander is good for the goose.