Why no hands?

[peterak]

For what it's worth, some fish—namely parrotfish and wrasses—use their pectoral fins for propulsion, not just as control surfaces. (Allen et al.'s reef fish books use this characteristic as a gestalt identifier for these families.)

Also for what it's worth, I often use my arms in either a breast stroke or freestyle motion when I'm trying to get somewhere while snorkeling on the surface. It removes a significant amount of work load from the quads. Doesn't work as well while diving.

 

[tursiops]

There is a myriad of reasons why MOF isn't good with the big two being mask defog in the eyes, and masks getting washed off from wave action, but it is also a panic reaction by most divers.

So stop there....teach the problem of fogging, the likelihood of mask loss. Embarassing someone because they put their mask on their forehead is juvenile.

One of the better quotes from The Great Dive Podcast uses with this type of discussion is the 3 C's, comfort, confidence, competence. It's a common concept, but they use it pretty frequently and in this type of discussion. Divers that have any sort of non-deliberate actions are not competent, which means they are not confident, which means they are not comfortable. Helping them to become competent will improve their confidence and ultimately their comfort which means they will be less prone to non-deliberate actions, especially the nervous ones like sculling hands.

I like this.

 

[tbone1004]

@tursiops it's worked for us for several decades and it usually only happens to 1 or 2 students a semester. It is an exceptionally rare occurrence. They are taught the reasons why we have them put it on the back of their head, and then they have consequences for not following the rules. Ours happen to be harmless childrens songs though every once in a while the variations on I'm a Little Teapot are quite unique, this last semester we had one that rapped it which was incredible.
Juvenile maybe, but quite effective, especially when it's a hotshot 20yr guy who has the hots for several girls in one of the other classes on the deck at the same time. Remember, our students are all in college, so what we are able to do with them is quite different than anything we would do teaching outside of it.

 

[Subcooled]

A diver benefits from being able to turn/reverse using both his/her feet and his/her hands. If we teach the using of hands first then nobody will learn to use feet.
Yet both skills are very usefull.

There are at least five efficient techniques to reverse combining the back kick and two different hand movements.

 

[Bob DBF]

Since I use my hands to move underwater on occasion, I am not it against it altogether. Just moving ones hands and arms to no apparent purpose is not useful. I would say it's a matter of whether the use of hands is the most efficient way to maneuver in a given situation. I was working on mimicking a seals flip turn, and there is no way to do it without the use of hands.

Back when I started SCUBA, Mike Nelson swimming underwater looked good on the screen, but man, it was hard work and never was as fast as the camera pan could make it look. Needless to say, I went on to more efficient propulsion methods. As a note, as a kid in a pool without fins, it worked passably well, but the breast stroke was better.



Bob

 

[Saniflush]

I told him it was because it made him look like a dork.

I would go with this. I know it's what resonates with Flush 1.0 and 2.0

 

[AJ]

There are at least five efficient techniques to reverse combining the back kick and two different hand movements.

The problem arises when your hands are occupied doing other things like handling a reel or smb. That's why I prefer not to use hands ever. By having forced myself to use my feet I have no problem positioning while holding a camera for instance. Great benefit of not using hands.

 

[AfterDark]

I had an interesting discussion with my son about this, so I'm interested in seeing what you think. I admit, I don't like seeing divers flailing along with poor finning technique, or overusing their hands. But my son had some interesting points:

1) Fish, dolphins, turtles, etc all have front fins and use them.
2) Small hand movements use small muscles and very little energy.

So if your hands are not otherwise engaged with gear, why not use them?

I told him it was because it made him look like a dork.

Here's my memory, back in the 1970's a bunch of snobs at a place called Club Med decided it was cool to dive with arms folded. The idea caught on, now every diver thinks that using hands to make small turns, small changes in depth and such are somehow signs of poor skills.

If I'm getting pushed around by surge and my choice is to bump into a rock or use a finger or two to push off the rock, then that's my choice because 200+ lbs bumping into the rock is more harmful than a couple of fingers. At that point I may also use the same hand to scoop a handful of water to turn into the surge. Those that don't like it, don't look.

After reading the thread I see we're also discussing mask on forehead; a time honored position. Personally I've been doing it for well over 50 years having started around age 10 now 65. I've broken a mask, lost a mask by leaving it at the site but, never lost one off the top of my head. I hear all these stories about how people lose masks that way. I ask myself is their heads or mine a funny shape?

The fogging issue, I spit in my mask one time, rub, no rinse, no fogging. I don't know who makes up these stories but I know they don't jive with my real world experience.

 

[Neilwood]

Here's my memory, back in the 1970's a bunch of snobs at a place called Club Med decided it was cool to dive with arms folded. The idea caught on, now every diver thinks that using hands to make small turns, small changes in depth and such are somehow signs of poor skills.

If I'm getting pushed around by surge and my choice is to bump into a rock or use a finger or two to push of the rock, then that's my choice because 200+ lbs bumping into the rock is more harmful than a couple of fingers. At that point I may also use the same hand to scoop a handful of water to turn into the surge. Those that don't like don't look.

After reading the thread I see we're also discussing mask on forehead; a time honored position. Personally I've been doing it for well over 50 years having started around age 10 now 65. I've broken a mask, lost a mask by leaving it at the site but, never lost one off the top of my head. I hear all these stories about how people loss masks that way. I ask myself is their heads or mind a funny shape?

The fogging issue, I spit in my mask one time, rub, no rinse, no fogging. I don't know who makes up these stories but I know they don't jive with my real world experience.

I don't have the same amount of experience as you but I agree with your post.

There are a number of sites we dive here where there is a large amount of surge and without use of the hands I would exit black and blue and most likely without a mask (kelp doesn't help as it seems to grab anything). Occasionally I might use a cupped hand to steer (esp in surge as you say) or to reverse rapidly as another diver makes a pass directly in front of me without any notice at all.

In general though, my arms are folded in front of me unless they are required for a torch, camera etc. They are not an efficient way of propulsion or steering - might as well use my legs as that is where the most efficient muscle is located.

With regards to mask on forehead, I think it is one of the stupidest "signs of distress" in existence. I nearly always surface, push my mask up to my forehead , remove reg and discuss the dive with my buddy while swimming back in on my back. If anyone sees any distress in that, feel free to swim out and "rescue" me - I will be happy to accept a tow if you are mad enough to provide it. It has never been in any danger from slipping of my head. If there is significant wave action I will keep my mask on and reg in.

 

[The Chairman]

Wow, we're equating sculling with putting your mask on your forehead? Why?

Sculling is a function of feeling out of control. We are an upright species and are proud of that. We stand, walk and sit upright so it's natural we feel more comfortable being head up. Why do you think kneeling is so common in Scuba instruction? Great trim, aka the Scuba Position, is almost perfectly horizontal and face down which flies in the face of our natural comfort. Many new divers, feeling any discomfort or disorientation, will scull in an attempt to get a bit more vertical, where they feel they'll be more comfortable. But we've weighted them to be more horizontal, so should they stop, they'll be face down again. Consequently, they keep sculling and sculling, burning through their air while floofing the silt below them and ruining the vis for everyone. Make no doubt about it, sculling is the worst thing for a great SAC or a good dive.

This is why it's important to teach horizontal trim from the very beginning. Students should never kneel to learn skills as that's not how they should be using them in OW. Proper trim is incredibly important to comfort, so it should be taught first. Second, should be buoyancy and after they get a beginning grasp of those two, traditional skills can be introduced. This way, skills are introduced and taught while the student is trim and neutral, in exactly the position they should be when they use those skills later while diving. Their comfort in the prone position while being neutral increases with each skill learned and they really have it down by the end of the class. Since there is no time needed to "unlearn" kneeling, it doesn't take any longer than a traditional class. The students come out as competent and relaxed divers, with no need to scull. That we need to teach "PPB" after open water is the single biggest condemnation of Scuba education that I know of.

I do teach the "one finger" approach to help establish being neutral while near the bottom. It doesn't work on a soft bottom, though.

I still don't get how this is anything like putting your mask on your forehead. The last guy who suggested that to me actually had his sunglasses on his forehead. When I pointed out how natural it is for us to put things there, even he relented. A worse trope is that you should kneel to learn Scuba. That only introduces bad habits and does nothing to promote comfort and confidence in the "Scuba Position".