PADI AOW+ certs and depth rating

[afieldofblue]

Hello all,

Entered a little discussion on RSTC/ PADI depth ranges and certs the other day, and thought I’d gather informed opinions.
In the 2019 instructor manual, PADI defines a deep dive as being between 18m (60 ft) and 30 m (100ft), with an absolute maximum recreational diving depth of 40m (130ft) - the last 10m being accessible only to divers having undertaken special training (ie the Deep Diver Specialty or other specified training, as implied by the following sentence: Exception: some courses such as Deep Diver and TecRec courses allow for greater depths )

An Advanced Open Water diver, having done the mandatory Deep Adventure dive, is thus certified to dive to a max depth 30m / 100ft, (depending on their actual training / confidence / conditions / buddies etc).

In this case, in a recreational fun dive (excursion) setting, a dive leader taking a PADI AOW diver below 30m (say 33m to see a famous seahorse) is a clear breach of PADI standards, right?

In the same vein, this means a PADI Divemaster is also only certified to lead dives to 30m, unless they have the Deep Diver Specialty / other training, right?

And logically, in the training part of the divemaster course, the Deep dive scenario should be limited to 30m (since the divemaster candidate has the same depth rating as an AOW diver), so taking the candidate below 30 meters (say 35m) is actually a breach of PADI standards, unless the DMT already has additional training (Deep Diver, TecRec) allowing him to dive to the max rec. depth limit of 40m...

Upon reading up on the subject, I found old threads where people referred to this 30m depth limit as a recommendation outside actual training dives, implying that the 30 to 40 m (100 to 130 ft) zone was actually accessible to AOW fun divers / DMs if conditions/experience were ok.

I couldn’t find this anywhere in current PADI material, maybe depths were given as recommendations for fun/excursion dives in the past, but this notion seems to have disappeared from standards in the current PADI instructor manual.

Is this basically all there is to it, or am I missing something?

thanks a bunch!

 

[JackD342]

Hello all,

Entered a little discussion on RSTC/ PADI depth ranges and certs the other day, and thought I’d gather informed opinions.
In the 2019 instructor manual, PADI defines a deep dive as being between 18m (60 ft) and 30 m (100ft), with an absolute maximum recreational diving depth of 40m (130ft) - the last 10m being accessible only to divers having undertaken special training (ie the Deep Diver Specialty or other specified training, as implied by the following sentence: Exception: some courses such as Deep Diver and TecRec courses allow for greater depths )

An Advanced Open Water diver, having done the mandatory Deep Adventure dive, is thus certified to dive to a max depth 30m / 100ft, (depending on their actual training / confidence / conditions / buddies etc).

In this case, in a recreational fun dive (excursion) setting, a dive leader taking a PADI AOW diver below 30m (say 33m to see a famous seahorse) is a clear breach of PADI standards, right?

In the same vein, this means a PADI Divemaster is also only certified to lead dives to 30m, unless they have the Deep Diver Specialty / other training, right?

And logically, in the training part of the divemaster course, the Deep dive scenario should be limited to 30m (since the divemaster candidate has the same depth rating as an AOW diver), so taking the candidate below 30 meters (say 35m) is actually a breach of PADI standards, unless the DMT already has additional training (Deep Diver, TecRec) allowing him to dive to the max rec. depth limit of 40m...

Upon reading up on the subject, I found old threads where people referred to this 30m depth limit as a recommendation outside actual training dives, implying that the 30 to 40 m (100 to 130 ft) zone was actually accessible to AOW fun divers / DMs if conditions/experience were ok.

I couldn’t find this anywhere in current PADI material, maybe depths were given as recommendations for fun/excursion dives in the past, but this notion seems to have disappeared from standards in the current PADI instructor manual.

Is this basically all there is to it, or am I missing something?

thanks a bunch!

Standards are clearly defined when conducting instruction, I agree it becomes a bit murky for leading fun dives. I think it is covered under the Code of Practice section, but for the most is pretty general with one exception that specifically addresses c-card limits:

15. Respect and reinforce the depth and supervisory restrictions as displayed on restricted PADI certification cards, such as PADI Scuba Diver and Junior Diver

Any other questions about interpretation should probably be a phone call to PADI. Sometimes these things are explained in the FAQ section of a Quarterly Bulletin.

 

[Graeme Fraser]

Regarding your point about the DM (certified assistant), I had an example of this yesterday when running a deep spec.

In the UK we are required by HSE to have surface cover during any professional diving activity. I was instructing and was allocated 2 certified assistants, one in-water and one surface. One DM was Tec 45 certified and the other had only completed deep scenario as part of their training.

For dive 3 (second day) I planned to take the students to 38m so had to ensure that only the deeper rated DM accompanied us with the other DM remaining topside. As dive 4 is shallower than 30m they were able to swap roles in the afternoon.

I have heard of non deep or tech qualified DM's being used for deep spec as no-one thought to check their certification beforehand. Easily done as all focus is on the students.

 

[tursiops]

Hello all,

Entered a little discussion on RSTC/ PADI depth ranges and certs the other day, and thought I’d gather informed opinions.
In the 2019 instructor manual, PADI defines a deep dive as being between 18m (60 ft) and 30 m (100ft), with an absolute maximum recreational diving depth of 40m (130ft) - the last 10m being accessible only to divers having undertaken special training (ie the Deep Diver Specialty or other specified training, as implied by the following sentence: Exception: some courses such as Deep Diver and TecRec courses allow for greater depths )

An Advanced Open Water diver, having done the mandatory Deep Adventure dive, is thus certified to dive to a max depth 30m / 100ft, (depending on their actual training / confidence / conditions / buddies etc).

In this case, in a recreational fun dive (excursion) setting, a dive leader taking a PADI AOW diver below 30m (say 33m to see a famous seahorse) is a clear breach of PADI standards, right?

In the same vein, this means a PADI Divemaster is also only certified to lead dives to 30m, unless they have the Deep Diver Specialty / other training, right?

And logically, in the training part of the divemaster course, the Deep dive scenario should be limited to 30m (since the divemaster candidate has the same depth rating as an AOW diver), so taking the candidate below 30 meters (say 35m) is actually a breach of PADI standards, unless the DMT already has additional training (Deep Diver, TecRec) allowing him to dive to the max rec. depth limit of 40m...

Upon reading up on the subject, I found old threads where people referred to this 30m depth limit as a recommendation outside actual training dives, implying that the 30 to 40 m (100 to 130 ft) zone was actually accessible to AOW fun divers / DMs if conditions/experience were ok.

I couldn’t find this anywhere in current PADI material, maybe depths were given as recommendations for fun/excursion dives in the past, but this notion seems to have disappeared from standards in the current PADI instructor manual.

Is this basically all there is to it, or am I missing something?

thanks a bunch!

Rather than just reading the IM or TB and inventing my own interpretations, I corresponded with PADI Training several times back-and-forth over this issue.
The results are in another thead.
The punch line is: PADI does not certify a diver to any depth, it only certifies that you took a class. That class had a standard with it about the maximum depth for training. Beyond that, PADI recommends gathering "training and/or experience" to go deeper. So NO PADI standards are being violated if a DM dives deeper than 100ft, so long as the DM has experience in doing so. There may be other local regulations and policies that require formal training but do not allow experience.
So please don't confuse standards with recommendations or with local policies. The PADI standards only apply to training, not to fun dives.

 

[Chidiver1]

Rather than just reading the IM or TB and inventing my own interpretations, I corresponded with PADI Training several times back-and-forth over this issue.
The results are in another thead.
The punch line is: PADI does not certify a diver to any depth, it only certifies that you took a class. That class had a standard with it about the maximum depth for training. Beyond that, PADI recommends gathering "training and/or experience" to go deeper. So NO PADI standards are being violated if a DM dives deeper than 100ft, so long as the DM has experience in doing so. There may be other local regulations and policies that require formal training but do not allow experience.
So please don't confuse standards with recommendations or with local policies. The PADI standards only apply to training, not to fun dives.

Lol makes you feel good doesn't it? They are trying to say we don't want more liability. Weird they try to distinguish between training dive to a Max depth and somehow fun dives are different.

 

[dlofting]

Lol makes you feel good doesn't it? They are trying to say we don't want more liability. Weird they try to distinguish between training dive to a Max depth and somehow fun dives are different.

Fun dives are different. As a certified diver you're responsible for your own safety, regardless of who is leading the dive.

 

[tursiops]

They are trying to say we don't want more liability.

They are saying they are a training organization, not a general diving organization. They can control the training (via their instructors), but not your general diving. All they can do for your fun diving is recommend limits, not set them as standards, and suggest you use training and experience to exceed those limits.

 

[Germie]

And 10 dives over 30m also means 'deep diver' equivalent. That is also written within padi. I have to look it up, as I have asked it a couple of years ago.

 

[yle]

In the same vein, this means a PADI Divemaster is also only certified to lead dives to 30m, unless they have the Deep Diver Specialty / other training, right?

This is a moot issue, because deep dive training is part of the DM course; it's waived if the DM candidate has completed the Deep Diver specialty.

 

[yle]

Lol makes you feel good doesn't it? They are trying to say we don't want more liability. Weird they try to distinguish between training dive to a Max depth and somehow fun dives are different.

Yes, they are different. As tursiops explained above:

PADI standards establish the limitations for instructors when they are working with students.

A certified diver can do whatever they want. PADI recommends that divers use common sense, dive conservatively and within the limits of their training. But PADI does not command divers to do things. Divers make their own decisions.