Doc Deep plans 1200' Dive

[rickgillyon]

Yeah... I get that. You're already analyzing it without having any information at all. Just imagine what you would do if you had actual information to base your rage on....

Rage...

 

[Patoux01]

We don't actually need the gases selected

You completely missed the point of my message. See the one by Diver0001.

"Yeah... I get that. You're already analyzing it without having any information at all. Just imagine what you would do if you had actual information to base your rage on....

And THIS is exactly why I think they should keep it off the net. It will just create drama from arm-chair quarterbacks without changing anything."

 

[Diver0001]

Sorry, did I miss the part where we got his gas planning?

No. There were no details released.

 

[Nirvana]

I don't think it was ever published and I don't think it's a good idea to publish it for a couple of reasons.

First of all, it's untested. He didn't make it to the ascent let alone the decompression stops so you don't want this information on the internet where people will see it and think that it is somehow a legitimate deco plan for a legitimate dive. Neither of these things is true. In other words, it's bad enough that one relative newbie got the idea to try a dive like this. You don't want to encourage anyone else to think it's doable because it's not.

Do you really think there are people out there just waiting for someone to release a plan to go diving 1000ft deep? Or even 400ft? The expense and logistics of getting all the the cylinders called for by the plan, even if not enough to safely execute the dive, should be enough to discourage anyone. If you add the result of the plan, it is really difficult to think of a group of people putting up the effort necessary to do a dive to hundreds of feet deep based on Guy Garman's plan.

It is worth it to remember that David Shaw published all his dive plans, including the one for his fatal dive attempt, on his website, which is still active. I don't think it generated a single attempt to replicate one of his dives. And most of his dives were successful, unlike Guy Garman's.

Secondly, the manner in which this unfolded spawned a whole slew of "I told you so" blogs and articles. Some of them good, most of them not. The guy turned himself into the poster boy for how NOT to do things and publishing the deco plan will just make him more of a laughing stock than he already was. People without the skills or experience to know whether it is a good plan or not (namely everyone on the planet except maybe 6 guys) will go on and on about the plan with chest thumping and authoritative sounding analyses that will be hard for anyone, let alone those who were actually involved, to read. I don't think that those people close enough to the dive to have access to the plan want to, or should want to, put themselves through that.

I agree with this part of your argument. I sympathize with the lack of desire of Guy Garman's friends and relatives to expose him to more criticism, which would surely come if his dive plan was made public.

 

[Hetland]

Yeah... I get that. You're already analyzing it without having any information at all. Just imagine what you would do if you had actual information to base your rage on....

And THIS is exactly why I think they should keep it off the net. It will just create drama from arm-chair quarterbacks without changing anything.

R..

Actually, we know he planned a super-fast descent, virtually guaranteeing HPNS issues. Specifically, he planned to bounce to 1,200ft, and return to 360ft within 38 minutes. Distributed evenly, that's about 53ft per minute. While it's likely he would have descended faster, at these depths, that's just as bad, or worse than ascending too fast.

We knew the number of bottles he was carrying, even giving him all benefit of doubt on volume, he still didn't have enough for the job. I think it was stated that he was using "X" number of gasses, but I can't be sure of that, I had some reason to believe he didn't have enough for appropriate gas mixes.

We also know that he was mixing/analyzing his bottom gasses in a dive shop instead of a lab, which you need to get O2 levels accurate enough at depths in this range. A dive shop can't accurately blend or test O2 at 3% to 5%, which is the range we're talking about for these depths.

We don't know what kind of CNS O2 exposure he would hit, which is one reason I'd like to see the full, actual plan. A back-of the-napkin calculation shows CNS total of 750% (but also shows he shouldn't hit 360ft for two hours), but that's a guess without further data.

Assuming I'm in a "rage", or trying to "create drama" is a strange reaction to an honest question about a dive plan. I'm just going to ignore you unless you have something relevant to share on this subject. You're opinion that this shouldn't be discussed is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

Sorry, did I miss the part where we got his gas planning?

We knew the number of bottles he was carrying. I think the total number of bottles was mentioned too, but don't make me swear to the second part.

We don't actually need the gases selected, it started before it even got to that point when he thought he could somehow magically avoid HPNS. I'm not sure they knew what that is or how it would affect him though.

Exactly! Pretty much every element of this dive was a suicide bullet. I want to see the plan that multiple technical divers apparently signed off on.

 

[Diver0001]

Actually, we know he planned a super-fast descent, virtually guaranteeing HPNS issues. Specifically, he planned to bounce to 1,200ft, and return to 360ft within 38 minutes. Distributed evenly, that's about 53ft per minute. While it's likely he would have descended faster, at these depths, that's just as bad, or worse than ascending too fast.

We knew the number of bottles he was carrying, even giving him all benefit of doubt on volume, he still didn't have enough for the job. I think it was stated that he was using "X" number of gasses, but I can't be sure of that, I had some reason to believe he didn't have enough for appropriate gas mixes.

We also know that he was mixing/analyzing his bottom gasses in a dive shop instead of a lab, which you need to get O2 levels accurate enough at depths in this range. A dive shop can't accurately blend or test O2 at 3% to 5%, which is the range we're talking about for these depths.

We don't know what kind of CNS O2 exposure he would hit, which is one reason I'd like to see the full, actual plan. A back-of the-napkin calculation shows CNS total of 750% (but also shows he shouldn't hit 360ft for two hours), but that's a guess without further data.

Assuming I'm in a "rage", or trying to "create drama" is a strange reaction to an honest question about a dive plan. I'm just going to ignore you unless you have something relevant to share on this subject. You're opinion that this shouldn't be discussed is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

Perhaps I walked into you too hard. You used a bunch of %^&( symbols and emphatically stated that you didn't care who it hurt as long as you got your chance to talk about it (my interpretation), which is exactly the behaviour I would expect from people on the internet and exactly why, if I were personally in the position of the family, I would not want any information on the internet.

This case may be very interesting for divers to discuss. Of that I have no doubt. But over the years I've been close to several people who have lost loved ones while diving and believe me when I say that once you understand both sides of the issue, some discussions are simply not worth it in the big picture.

As for what you wrote above, I do recall those details from his plan and I do recall seeing (and counting) the number of stage bottles he intended to use and I do remember thinking to myself that Mark used a lot more gas on his 313m bounce than I saw there.....

The main thing that surprised me was the statement that he was using several different computers. No extreme dive has ever been done using a computer. I think Pascal used one but the dive was still planned on paper and executed from a slate using the computer as a backup from what I understand.

So yes, for divers, there is enough about this dive that is interesting to discuss, but this was the most spectacular Darwin award ever earned by a diver and I really think that the family is being wise to keep details to themselves.

R..

 

[Rhone Man]

I agree with this part of your argument. I sympathize with the lack of desire of Guy Garman's friends and relatives to expose him to more criticism, which would surely come if his dive plan was made public.

Yeah, I think we have seen that in spades, both on this thread as well as around the net. The man made a very poorly judged decision and he (and, by extension, his family) paid with his life. Time to let him rest in peace and move on.

 

[dreamdive]

Agree with returner and rhone man: the information should NOT be made available to the public and it is time to move on!

There were so many things wrong with this dive that adding to cannot be considered educational.

 

[Hetland]

Agree with returner and rhone man: the information should NOT be made available to the public and it is time to move on!

There were so many things wrong with this dive that adding to cannot be considered educational.

I disagree, but the plan is either in the public domain or not. If not, then I'd agree that the subject is a dead horse.

 

[Hetland]

Perhaps I walked into you too hard. You used a bunch of %^&( symbols and emphatically stated that you didn't care who it hurt as long as you got your chance to talk about it (my interpretation), which is exactly the behaviour I would expect from people on the internet and exactly why, if I were personally in the position of the family, I would not want any information on the internet.

This case may be very interesting for divers to discuss. Of that I have no doubt. But over the years I've been close to several people who have lost loved ones while diving and believe me when I say that once you understand both sides of the issue, some discussions are simply not worth it in the big picture.

As for what you wrote above, I do recall those details from his plan and I do recall seeing (and counting) the number of stage bottles he intended to use and I do remember thinking to myself that Mark used a lot more gas on his 313m bounce than I saw there.....

The main thing that surprised me was the statement that he was using several different computers. No extreme dive has ever been done using a computer. I think Pascal used one but the dive was still planned on paper and executed from a slate using the computer as a backup from what I understand.

So yes, for divers, there is enough about this dive that is interesting to discuss, but this was the most spectacular Darwin award ever earned by a diver and I really think that the family is being wise to keep details to themselves.

R..

My statements towards the supporters was meant in a context of Accident Analysis vs. Their Feelings on the subject. I wouldn't care to run up to someone and give them @#$% about an accident, but I feel strongly about accident analysis, and any diplomacy or sympathy I would normally show a relative, or non-technical participant, isn't available for technical divers participating in this event. I can see how that comes off as dickish. It is, but I can't muster any feeling for the ones that should have known better.

As I stated above, the plan's available, or it's not, if not, then I agree that this subject is more than adequately covered.