Master.........Really?

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One more thought.

I feel like my diving skills improved quite a lot through all the training I did on the way to getting MSD. But, my self-evaluation of my skills is that my skills are much weaker NOW than I THOUGHT they were when I started the first bit of training. I think the process of getting to MSD has not just improved my skills but also made me better/safer by raising my awareness of how poor my skills actually are compared to what they could be some day. If I had done 50 dives without any of that formal training along the way, I could easily imagine myself having some unwarranted confidence in my skills. Instead, I feel like I have a more realistic self-assessment - because the training exposed me to a number of training situations that wouldn't normally occur in "fun dives" but that did illustrate to me how weak my skills were/are.

Over the last year, I have met a number of divers. Some of whom are WAY more experienced than I am. One specific gentleman immediately comes to mind. A conversation with him revealed that he has hundreds more dives and years more experience than I do. Yet he dove the San Francisco Maru in Truk with only a single AL80 and exactly zero technical training. He did the dive without doing any explicit dive or gas planning. He felt comfortable doing it based on already diving with his DM for a few days prior and trusting that his DM understood his gas consumption and reassured him that he could do the dive. The DM told him he just needed to follow the stops his (recreational) dive computer prescribed during his ascents. I started asking him questions that culminated with "if you knew you were going to have to do required stops on the ascent, but you didn't work out ahead of time how long those stops would be, how did you KNOW you were carrying enough gas to hold the required stops?" At this point, the guy's eyes got kind of wide and it was clear to me that he had just experienced a small epiphany of how dangerous what he had done was. I think he told me he dropped into a hold on the wreck and hit a max depth of 185'... with only a single AL80... and the DM's word that he would be okay.

I cite this as an example of how I could foresee a lot of people behaving if they have a lot of dives under their belt and no further formal training beyond AOW and Nitrox. An example that I think would be less likely to occur if someone did pursue enough formal training to attain an MSD certification.

An example of having unwarranted confidence by virtue of not knowing what you don't know. Of course there is no guarantee that a person will get any clue of what they don't know by achieving MSD. They could take all the really junk certification courses and learning nothing, even from the courses they do take. But, particularly since Rescue is required, I am inclined to have a little faith that anyone interested enough to do all the work required - even if they are just doing it to earn "the merit badge" - will pick up SOME inkling of "what they don't know" along the way.

And that seems to me to be a Good Thing. If the word "Master" in the title is part of what attracts some people to do it, what's the problem?

I asked before: Does anyone have direct personal experience with someone who has MSD and who has a seriously overinflated opinion of their own skills? I could imagine that it does happen, but I would GUESS that it doesn't happen that often? And probably only to people who are going to be a hazard to themselves, no matter what, MSD or not.
 
How many divers have you personally talked to that got their MSD cert and you feel like had some overblown opinion of their skills? How about some examples?

Okay I don't dive commercial that often. I am lucky that I club dive. I'm one of the babies with only 350 dives most are either nearing or above the 1000 dives so I get the benefit of diving with and being mentored by very experienced people who have a wide experience in different conditions.

However I have been on boats with MSD and even newly minted DM's They have brought into the marketing. they believe that because they have their certs they are great. The fact that their buoyancy trim, and gas consumption is pants, they have no idea about gas calcs for rock bottom etc. It's not their fault. They've been told that this is sought after cert, they've spent time and money on it. Unfortunately they have less than 100 dives, so don't know what they don't know. I blame the system not the individual
 
@stuartv

I didn NOT say you have accomplished nothing. You have taken additional training. The fact still remains that you can take say a DS course (I'll use that example because I've done it myself) collect the card and do no other DS diving. So according to the Agency you are competent is DS diving.

No. According to the agency, I have completed training on how to dive in a dry suit. I am now free to practice DS diving on my own.

Currently with MSD all people do is meet the minimum requirement of an "adventure dive" or introduction to a specialty.

No. Adventure Diver (by PADI or SDI standards) only requires an intro to each specialty. MSD requires completing the full specialty courses chosen. Adventure Diver can be completed with 5 dives, total, in addition to the original 4 OW checkout dives. You could be an SDI Adventure Diver or PADI Advanced Open Water Diver with only 9 dives, in total, in your log book. To achieve MSD, you'd have at least somewhere around 15 training dives (depending on which specialties you choose and not counting the 4 OW training dives), and a total of 50 dives.

You are doing two things:

- you are continuing to assert that a certification implies a certain level of skill, which is incorrect. All certifications only attest to a certain level of training.

- you are getting hung up on the word "Master" and what YOU think it SHOULD mean.

Combine those two things and I can see why you have a problem. Recognize that the certification, by any name, is only an attestation by the issuing agency that you have completed a certain amount of training, and recognize that it's up to the agency to evaluate the training they offer and then decide what amount of training makes sense in order to confer the Master title, and I think you wouldn't have such a big beef.
 
I blame the system not the individual

And is the problem with having the word "master" in the cert name? Or with their instructors?

I'm thinking those people you have met did not get their false confidence from the word on their card....
 
Diving Dubai, What you're saying is that taking a full specialty course (as opposed to the first dive for Adventure Diver, AOW, etc.) is still just a basic introduction to the specialty. That though you may have all or most of the book knowledge for the activity, you can't master it until you've done quite a few dives doing it. I have no problem with that line of thought at all. My specialties for MSD were Wreck, Deep, PPB, Night, Nitrox. Nitrox speaks for itself and I feel I am fairly "masterful" with buoyancy. The other 3 (which I rarely do)-- nowhere even close to a Master.
Oh yeah, I also have Equip. Specialist so I can replace an o ring.
And UW Navigator--I'm pretty decent, but don't ask me to do a perfect hexagon (who does that anyway?).
 
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One more thought.

I feel like my diving skills improved quite a lot through all the training I did on the way to getting MSD. But, my self-evaluation of my skills is that my skills are much weaker NOW than I THOUGHT they were when I started the first bit of training. I think the process of getting to MSD has not just improved my skills but also made me better/safer by raising my awareness of how poor my skills actually are compared to what they could be some day. If I had done 50 dives without any of that formal training along the way, I could easily imagine myself having some unwarranted confidence in my skills. Instead, I feel like I have a more realistic self-assessment - because the training exposed me to a number of training situations that wouldn't normally occur in "fun dives" but that did illustrate to me how weak my skills were/are.

Over the last year, I have met a number of divers. Some of whom are WAY more experienced than I am. One specific gentleman immediately comes to mind. A conversation with him revealed that he has hundreds more dives and years more experience than I do. Yet he dove the San Francisco Maru in Truk with only a single AL80 and exactly zero technical training. He did the dive without doing any explicit dive or gas planning. He felt comfortable doing it based on already diving with his DM for a few days prior and trusting that his DM understood his gas consumption and reassured him that he could do the dive. The DM told him he just needed to follow the stops his (recreational) dive computer prescribed during his ascents. I started asking him questions that culminated with "if you knew you were going to have to do required stops on the ascent, but you didn't work out ahead of time how long those stops would be, how did you KNOW you were carrying enough gas to hold the required stops?" At this point, the guy's eyes got kind of wide and it was clear to me that he had just experienced a small epiphany of how dangerous what he had done was. I think he told me he dropped into a hold on the wreck and hit a max depth of 185'... with only a single AL80... and the DM's word that he would be okay.

I cite this as an example of how I could foresee a lot of people behaving if they have a lot of dives under their belt and no further formal training beyond AOW and Nitrox. An example that I think would be less likely to occur if someone did pursue enough formal training to attain an MSD certification.

An example of having unwarranted confidence by virtue of not knowing what you don't know. Of course there is no guarantee that a person will get any clue of what they don't know by achieving MSD. They could take all the really junk certification courses and learning nothing, even from the courses they do take. But, particularly since Rescue is required, I am inclined to have a little faith that anyone interested enough to do all the work required - even if they are just doing it to earn "the merit badge" - will pick up SOME inkling of "what they don't know" along the way.

And that seems to me to be a Good Thing. If the word "Master" in the title is part of what attracts some people to do it, what's the problem?

I asked before: Does anyone have direct personal experience with someone who has MSD and who has a seriously overinflated opinion of their own skills? I could imagine that it does happen, but I would GUESS that it doesn't happen that often? And probably only to people who are going to be a hazard to themselves, no matter what, MSD or not.

Both of them are idiots. If Mr. Has a ton of experience knew how to plan a dive he would have known he had absolutely zero margin of error on that dive with a single 80. There is a difference between taking risks and gambling. We take calculated risks by diving instead staying home sitting on the couch, but assuming that a dive will go off perfect at those depths is gambling. The DM that assured him that he would be ok is the dangerous idiot. The planning that was ingrained in me during my military career is the have a plan that has Primary, secondary, contingency, and emergency plans for everything. Also if a piece of kit is critical to success then, two is one, and one is none. Failure to plan Is planning for failure. I go offshore in my boat, it has redundant everything, radios, gps, two engines, two fuel tanks, and I even carry a spare boat! (life raft). That's why we dive as buddy teams, you have two sources of air and have an emergency abort plan if a problem develops.
 
I don't usually dip into threads like this - just sit back and chuckle, but I have found a number of the posts here thought provoking on a number of levels.

I agree that continuing learning, the recreational equivalent of CPD is good, but also agree that somehow the recreational agencies have to find a way to motivate the average diver to take part in this and part with their cash, otherwise the agency business model, and business would ultimately fail.

So I totally understand why recreational agencies have nice 'sexy' titles like "Advanced Diver" and "Master Scuba Diver" and so on. Whatever we believe they do have 'bragging' value in the bar in the eyes of non-divers.

But what immediately struck me is that this is not the same as the grade names awarded by the club based systems I have dived with. I started with CMAS through a club and worked my way through 1, 2 and 3 star levels - equivalent to PADI DM etc. then went on to complete my CMAS instructor. None of these names carry the 'cachet' of "Advanced Diver" or "Master Diver", or actually describe what level you are at.

Then I went into the BSAC system - where you start with Ocean Diver, then move on to Sport Diver - both of these levels include drysuit training, nitrox training, (sport level also includes decompression diving) and rescue training in the basic certification. These levels, in terms of depth limits equate to OW and AOW in PADI, but not in content because of the inclusion of nitrox, rescue and drysuit in the basic courses. Then BSAC moves on to Dive Leader - which includes, as the name says - dive leading skills, greater depth progression, and more dive and dive group management type skills. Then finally after all these levels you get to BSAC Advanced Diver - which then includes dive expedition planning, planning diving from multiple platforms, and risk assessing and diving previously un-dived sites.

With BSAC I am currently a BSAC Advanced Diver and Open Water Instructor.

So the difference between a BSAC Advanced Diver and a commercial recreational agency AOW is a vast chasm between the requirements to achieve the grade, but this difference is not readily ascertainable from the name.

But BSAC does not just stop there, it offers a higher level still of diver certification, "First Class Diver" and to achieve this too sit nationally invigilated exams that are held once or twice a year, attend a several day 'examination' course where you are continually assessed and a small number of people, maybe a handful of divers, achieve this level each year. Most BSAC divers never achieve this level.

So I think there is a clear difference here with the approaches of the club based systems, and commercial based systems in terms of naming policy and I think that is a deliberate policy to entice further participation by divers in the training schemes and maintain revenue streams.

The commercial systems seem to have nice 'bragging value' type names for grades that although definately worthwhile training, do not represent in any way what the dictionary description of the title would imply.

I also agree training received and current skill level do not always match, but I do believe the agencies play on the emotional/ego value of "I'm an Advanced Diver", or "I'm a Master Scuba Diver" and many people buy into this ego trip.

Now SB is a little different, most people here, in my experience, are divers rather than people who occasionally dive, so most SB regulars will have a different mindset, and will probably be aware of what they know, don't know, need to know and so on, or at least thats why they are on SB to find out!

The proportion of certified divers who are regulars on SB will be minuscule, for so many reasons.

So is scuba diving CPD worthwhile, of course it is, do the names chosen for their grades by many recreational agencies reflect the skill levels achieved by the participants during the course, not in my opinion.

But does it really matter if people are enjoying what they are doing, do it safely and come back after every dive, of course it doesn't matter a jot.

If it bothers you that the "AOW" or "MSD" titles they have make your mate seem more important than you, then you have already half bought into the 'myth', go the whole hog, complete the requisites and get your own ticket if you believe it is not so hard.

If you are secure in your own diving knowledge and skills, can book the charters and dives you want to do without difficulty, then don't sweat the small stuff, let others have their titles and live their own life, who really cares it is a recreational sport.

One day I will try for BSAC First Class Diver - because that would mean something to me personally, but I feel I am nowhere near good enough at the moment.

Dive safe and enjoy ! - Phil.
 
If you are secure in your own diving knowledge and skills, can book the charters and dives you want to do without difficulty, then don't sweat the small stuff, let others have their titles and live their own life, who really cares it is a recreational sport.

Dive safe and enjoy ! - Phil.
well said- from my observation of postings on SB and the banter about what gear or configuration is best it appears the pursuit of perfect technique, perfect trim, perfect rig set up has become for some the end goal rather than the dive itself. I wonder if the yearning for some recognised benchmark of skill is more about measuring themselves against other divers rather than personal achievements and gaining confidence to take their diving further or as you say 'dive safe and enjoy'
 
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