Sidemount and helmets in open water

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First of all:
We are leaving the topic again!
Wearing helmets in open water diving, if I remember correctly.

What does DIR have to do with sidemount?
About the same as cavediving has.

I do not agree at all.
Sidemount and DIR are closely related in many aspects.

You mentioned DIR earlier in the thread and I already answered that.
The explanation "because: DIR" is enough to some.

You don't need a helmet in backmount because usually, assuming horizontal trim, the tanks or manifold and valves hit the ceiliing first, not the head.
As the helmet is mostly a light mounting system, I do not see the logic there. You also need lights backmount and cannot connect those to the valves.
This thread is about using the helmet for something different than protection primarily.
That also translates to the use in a cave.
I would certainly use the helmet and helmet lights differently now than I would have had I only been introduced to the helmet after cave training for the purpose of restriction diving.
I would certainly feel hampered using lines and markers with a hand mounted primary again.

As to not making contact with the cave in training sure, that's what you try to avoid doing.
Probably the reason why training is absolutely forbidden in all local natural caves.
Accepting damage to those caves, even superficial damage, is unacceptable and so diving is nearly competely forbidden to anyone but 'explorers'.

But when you can't see at all and need to exit in touch contact or search for the line, the risk of hitting something is very real.
I know, but in my opinion protecting your head with a helmet amounts to 'cheating' and agree with the mentioned instructor in that.
Even if it is not practical, in training you should be taught optimal behavior and not hit your head hard because you use the right technique, not technology.

And when you can't see in a vertical or diagonal passage or in restrictions, chances of hitting something are high.
As far as I know only a minority of the local instructors train students in 'real' restrictions, never in cavern or intro, rarely even in fullcave training.
Perhaps in countries where there are more caves or different caves.
Restriction training (if not avoided completely) is done in selected places in neighboring countries or at simulation locations in cavern areas, selected for safety and for being hard to damage or that have been damaged a lot by divers already.

Keep in mind that you only have two hands and need to stay in touch contact with your buddy or hold on to the reg hose if you are the OOA recipient plus you need to hold on to the line and use one hand to feel the cave and protect your head.
Yes and training should include not going fast enough to knock you out, shouldn't it?

And of course you need to do that while moving at a moderate speed.
In my trainingI hit my head and tanks more than once.
I do not think that's mandatory.
Explains a lot though :wink:

As to the hood, I said 5mm+ which means anything better or equal 5mm will offer some protection.
As I said, more than most helmets.

Regarding open water diving I actually see more real use for a helmet, wreck diving in particular.
Stone can be hard and sharp, but does not compare to rusted jagged metal edges or, as the most extreme case, glas.
You meet few of those objects in natural caves, mines and wrecks contain a lot more dangerous edges.
Some of those objects will cut through any thickness of neoprene without you feeling resistance or pain before hitting bone.
A hard plastic shell might actually be more useful around deteriorating man made objects than around rock.
 
Regarding open water diving I actually see more real use for a helmet, wreck diving in particular.
Stone can be hard and sharp, but does not compare to rusted jagged metal edges or, as the most extreme case, glas.
When was wreck penetration - especially in narrow passages where "rusted jagged metal edges" is an issue - redefined as "open water"? I must have missed that memo.
 
I cannot follow that logic.
I'm not sure what logic you can follow. So please, if you have a question for me to answer from this thread, please start a conversation and stop quoting me here. I may or may not answer, but I won't be coming back to this thread and quoting me just puts it back on my radar. Thanks in advance.
 
Well I'm done in this thread too.

I've tried to clear up some of your misconceptions regarding the use of helmets in overhead environments.

Sadly you do not accept any of the experience offered but argue against all of it, which is sad. Please understand that you possess virtually no knowledge of many topics you talk about. Be it SMB's, cave diving, overhead diving, diving in currents - basically pretty much everything outside of the world of diving known to you.
You are making assumptions about advanced training, agency standards, advanced diving and about overhead environments, all of which are based on your outside view.
Maybe you could try to understand that learning to dive begins with training. Step two is to add lots of real life experience by using the learned knowledge - in different and challenging situations.
 
When was wreck penetration - especially in narrow passages where "rusted jagged metal edges" is an issue - redefined as "open water"? I must have missed that memo.
Penetrating a wreck is not required to 'brain yourself' on something.

Personally I swam into a large glass shard once and I wasn't technically 'wreck diving' then, cut through the hood and then through the gloves, but luckily only grazed skin.
I only realized what had happened when i was seeing it from a different angle afterwards.
 
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I've tried to clear up some of your misconceptions regarding the use of helmets in overhead environments.
That never was a topic in this thread.

Sadly you do not accept any of the experience offered but argue against all of it, which is sad.
I do not argue anything.
I am just saying I am addressing some real concerns here, as this thread also seems to prove constantly.
Constantly denying the truth of problems with 'sidemount and helmets in open water' is not helping anyone.
Denying the advantages is just as stupid, discussing them could be useful on the other hand.

Please understand that you possess virtually no knowledge of many topics you talk about.
likewise :wink:


Be it SMB's, cave diving, overhead diving, diving in currents - basically pretty much everything outside of the world of diving known to you.
Yes I know, nobody knows as much about any part of diving as you do. We already discusses that a lot in recent years.

You are making assumptions about advanced training, agency standards, advanced diving and about overhead environments, all of which are based on your outside view.
You are the one constantly 'assuming'.

Maybe you could try to understand that learning to dive begins with training.
Maybe you should try learning yourself for ones instead of trying to train someone or everyone who does not desire your so called help?

Step two is to add lots of real life experience by using the learned knowledge - in different and challenging situations.
Thank you old and wise man :wink:
 
Constantly denying the truth of problems with 'sidemount and helmets in open water' is not helping anyone.
Denying the advantages is just as stupid, discussing them could be useful on the other hand.

Nobody was denying the merits of using a helmet in open water.
If you wish to use a helmet for mounting your lights and a GoPro that's fine, nobody argues otherwise.

Yes I know, nobody knows as much about any part of diving as you do. We already discusses that a lot in recent years.

Don't be silly. You don't see me posting about advanced deep decompression dives. While Trimix certified, my experience with it is extremely limited so I just listen to what people with real experience have to say.
The same is true about rebreathers. While I have had some very limited rebreather experience and training, I'm not an expert at all and would never dream of posting about rebreathers. I listen to what people with experience have to say. For you in German Daniel: "Schuster bleib bei Deinen Leisten..:"

Maybe you should try learning yourself for ones instead of trying to train someone or everyone who does not desire your so called help?

What exactly do you want me to learn? I bought a Light Monkey helmet at one point (because someone told me sidemount requires one) and used it exactly once. I hated it with a vengeance and gave the helmet away.
 
Nobody was denying the merits of using a helmet in open water.
Read the thread again.
You can apologize to all the 'nobodys' afterwards :wink:

If you wish to use a helmet for mounting your lights and a GoPro that's fine, nobody argues otherwise.
I have been told otherwise.
I am often told 'Wearing that you would not be allowed at...'.
When I go there however I rarely face real problems or discussions - seems to depend on who is asking. :confused:

and btw: personally I think a Gopro mounted on a helmet is silly and dangerous.

Don't be silly.
Who is silly now? Are you playing games again?

You don't see me posting about advanced deep decompression dives.
Well you are commenting on 'helmets', a topic you admit below to know next to nothing about.

While Trimix certified, my experience with it is extremely limited so I just listen to what people with real experience have to say.
From what I know about you you always ignore other peoples experience, no offense intended.

You often use a simple sentence like 'it helps if you hit your head' into an overhead discussion pretending to only talk about the area you consider yourself an expert on.
Well, sidemount isn't cave diving, or wreck diving, or trimix - it is all of that and a lot more.

The same is true about rebreathers.
Another topic that is a lot more theoretical than practical.
I am a lot more interested in a mechanics or electronics student with zero dive experience than I am interested in a biased users opinion on a technical device like a rebreather.
If you ask a user, every rebreather is the ultimate machine and absolutely idiot poof and save to use (depending on own certification, either certified or not).

While I have had some very limited rebreather experience and training, I'm not an expert at all and would never dream of posting about rebreathers.
Actually... you are posting about rebreathers in that paragraph.

I listen to what people with experience have to say.
Are you sure you do? How do you even know?
I believe you judge their experience yourself and probably do not always guess right, just like everybody else.

For you in German Daniel: "Schuster bleib bei Deinen Leisten..:"
Funny for you to say that.
Über Schuhe darf man hier ja nicht ohne Meisterbrief reden und du benutzt das - wie immer.

What exactly do you want me to learn?
Don't know really. Respecting other peoples opinions perhaps?
But I do not want to spoil the mood, your posts are quite open minded and tolerant at the moment.

I bought a Light Monkey helmet at one point (because someone told me sidemount requires one) and used it exactly once.
If you think that makes you experienced enough to comment on the topic of helmets, feel free to do so.
On the other hand my current one is 6th generation, third shell, 4th labeling design, has about 20 former bungee holes and dozents of lights have been mounted to it.
I have been using it on and off for 5-6 years (only a single time in the first year) with increasing regularity, this shell has about 500 water contacts on it now and scratches to prove it has been used (and enough rust and other particles on them to prove they are real and not faked) and none of them originate from strict overhead environments, as far as I know.
And I do not consider myself 'experienced'.

I always need some time before I give advice on a topic, a single trial is not sufficient for me to even think I know anything useful.
Long before I try anything I collect opinions on the topic, I simply ask people who have proven experience and also competence.
After trying myself a few times however (and that can take only 10 dives and one or two videos or something) I usually consider myself informed enough to have an opinion I can share.

I hated it with a vengeance and gave the helmet away.
Now that is a sentiment I can understand. I also get frustrated by equipment sometimes and it can take a long time for me to try something that failed again, but as I said, never or rarely only once.[/QUOTE]
 
Here we go, being all silly again. Imma pull a Netdoc on this one and unsubscribe as well (as soon as I figure out how to). This thread contains no information at all and even the fighting is not entertaining...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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