Sidemount and helmets in open water

[bamafan]

Oliver you just don't understand. If you had certification allowing you to dive duck ponds or indoor swimming pools you might find this maneuver very helpful. Maybe the ducks like it.

 

[Razorista]

why would you ever need to use your hands and more importantly why would you want to?

As I said, precision and restricted fin movement and also in case you loose a fin or two.

Your fins are very big, your hands are not.

Not many fish in the sea with only a single fin size on their body. Most use all of those.

If you are going forward, you can use a shuffle kick,

Often you can't and that does not require any real 'restrictions', could be swarms of small animals or even other divers, restricted visibility, or just not looking hard enough into the gloom behind your shoulders before some backward fin strokes.

if you are going backwards, you can scull backwards without moving your fins too far

Depends. Vegetation for example can stop any backward movement.

and will go backwards much more efficiently,

Most divers are not 'effective' at all backward.

especially if you have as much room laterally as you need to get any propulsion from your arms.

There are large an small movements.

Alternatively, if you are in a small passage and don't have that lateral movement, you can push yourself backwards from the wall, but that should only be if you get stuck...

It is more useful when you don't have anything within reach anyway.

Using the hands in such a manner is not acceptable.

In such an exaggerated way, no. more subdued and practical movements, yes, very acceptable.

It will disturb the silt, there is absolutely zero chance that it wouldn't.

As I said: you can use it to avoid or reduce silting or touching.

Now I truly believe it works well in your indoor diving center or your favorite pond, but believe me that you'd not do well with it in most real life scenarios.

You should probably watch more Steve Bogaerts videos

All propulsion and maneuvering efforts needs to direct the water away from the floor.

Using the hands can never achieve that,

why?

unless you would do the hand movements above your head which would look even weirder than what you are doing in the video.

The exact movement also works nearly touching ground and will not stir up sand or even lighter particles.

Using your hands would make you fail any of my classes. It's a taboo, you don't use your hands, ever.

Taboos are always a big problem in diving education. Some are useful, this one is ridiculous if you start to think about it.

No it can't.

Yes it can

Back to helmets now?

 

[nakatomi]

Ok, let me say it again hoping you finally get it.

Using the hands to move, turn or otherwise maneuver in the water is not acceptable in technical diving.
And that's the part of the forum you and I are posting in now.

In recreational diving it may be acceptable, sort of, as it normally has little negative impact in OW on the environment if the hands are used to help to move, turn etc..

And once again, when the diving gets technical and finesse is called for (in all sidemount environments for example), the hands serve no purpose when it comes to maneuvering. That's what the fins or the scooter are for...

 

[decompression]

Raz, the arm thing, it just seems to be you. No agency or instructor I know of condones, advocates or recognizes the use of this.

It really just comes down to you making things up as you think they might be useful in someway. One of these things may some day, be useful.

I think it would benefit you greatly if you took recognized training and practised those skills versus creating situations in your head and inventing skills to overcome them.

Just my opinion.

 

[The Chairman]

The use of hands will be a fail in my Open Water class. They aren't allowed to touch the bottom and they aren't allowed to swim with their hands with only one caveat. Adaptive divers who lack the use of their legs and/or feet will obviously be allowed to take the class using only their hands to swim. What's more: I'll join them.

 

[tbone1004]

You don't know what you don't know, and if Boegarts is advocating using hands for propulsion, he needs to have his instructor cards pulled.

For reference, I can back fin faster barefoot than you could with your arms, all the while not disturbing the silt... Students will regularly balk at backfinning saying they can't do it and I am at an unfair advantage due to using XXL jet fins that are quite large, but then I remove fins and can go backwards with ease. Nowhere near as fast mind you, but with no issues.

Regarding the fish thing, note that fish don't have independent rear fins, so of course they have to use pectorals for direction. We have independent rear feet and as such have the ability to go forwards and backwards, rotate on a 0 radius, shuffle sideways, and create positive and negative lift using just our fins requiring no motion from your hands at all. If you need to use your hands, you don't know how to kick properly. If you are in heavy vegetation, you won't be able to go backwards regardless because you will get stuck, especially in sidemount where you have a nice gap between your tanks and body that would love to trap vegetation. I have been technical diving since 2009 and never once have I had to use my hands for propulsion. I know that isn't as long as his holiness Steve, and his grace HP, but I have been in many environments and have never encountered a need for my hands as propulsion in that manner. The only time I have had to use my hands is in high flow caves for pull and glide, or in very narrow restrictions where it is safer to use your hands to pull/push/navigate, but it is never moving water, always holding onto something and navigating that way. I honestly have no more accurate maneuverability with my hands than I do with my fins.

 

[nakatomi]

Tom nailed it and I suggest to read his post many times over.

 

[MSargeant]

Only time I've ever heard of using hands for positioning (aside from people with physical limitations as mentioned by NetDoc) 1:45 if the autoplay doesn't work.


Aside from that, what Tbone said.

 

[Razorista]

The technique has been recommended to me by HP and by Steve Martin even before I started sidemount diving.
Took me years to first try myself, but now that I use it constantly it is hard to feel complete without.

 

[Razorista]

Ok, let me say it again hoping you finally get it.

You understandably are confusing yourself. I am not the one here who seems slow on the uptake

Using the hands to move, turn or otherwise maneuver in the water is not acceptable in technical diving.

Who is accepting?
Some guy standing on the shore while I dive probably
To me there is only one thing unacceptable in technical diving: inflexibility

And that's the part of the forum you and I are posting in now.

Calling sidemount a technical diving speciallity is outdated. There are far more rec sidemount divers nowadays than tec.

In recreational diving it may be acceptable, sort of, as it normally has little negative impact in OW on the environment if the hands are used to help to move, turn etc..

When was your last dive with diving novices?
Using your hands inexpertly will silt even when done in 5m distance from the sand.

And once again, when the diving gets technical and finesse is called for (in all sidemount environments for example), the hands serve no purpose when it comes to maneuvering. That's what the fins or the scooter are for...

I never thought people like Steve Martin laked 'finesse'.

Raz, the arm thing, it just seems to be you.

Nope, as shown by the Steve Martin vid above.

No agency or instructor I know of condones, advocates or recognizes the use of this.

Gosidemount teaches certain movements (not those from my vid) in the advanced sidemount classes, from what I am told.

It really just comes down to you making things up as you think they might be useful in someway.

I am no inventor. I do not make things up, I copy.
Was the first person showing videos of Mares bungee straps with the useless hand-grip cut of, even Steve Bogaerts only started showing that later
That is the only thing I can remember though.

One of these things may some day, be useful.

I do not mention anything on the internet that has not proven itself to be useful, except as a example for bad practice.

I think it would benefit you greatly if you took recognized training and practised those skills versus creating situations in your head and inventing skills to overcome them.

Please tell me the type of training and teacher

Just my opinion.

Yes, one opinion

The use of hands will be a fail in my Open Water class.

I am actually a wee bit past open water classes.

They aren't allowed to touch the bottom and they aren't allowed to swim with their hands with only one caveat.

Had a training like that myself just a couple of years ago.
Hard to unlearn now.

Adaptive divers who lack the use of their legs and/or feet will obviously be allowed to take the class using only their hands to swim. What's more: I'll join them.

I don't, often would look like mocking them. I do what I personaly can for a sucessfull dive and personally I cannot lift myself from a wheelchair one-handed, as some so called 'handicapped' divers can. In the water many handicaps can become advantages.

You don't know what you don't know, and if Boegarts is advocating using hands for propulsion, he needs to have his instructor cards pulled.

No, he is advocating using the hands for certain slow and precise maneuvers and only to his own students.
And btw: how do you 'pull' the instructor card from someone who literally is his own agency?
He is gosidemount, he does not strictly need his instructor cards from other agencys anymore.

For reference, I can back fin faster barefoot than you could with your arms,

For reference: how do you know that?

all the while not disturbing the silt...

Probably...

Students will regularly balk at backfinning saying they can't do it and I am at an unfair advantage due to using XXL jet fins that are quite large, but then I remove fins and can go backwards with ease. Nowhere near as fast mind you, but with no issues.

Show me going backwards or sideways by exactly 10 or 20cm using your fins.
Since you cannot complete a single stroke of the fins most people fail misserably
Anyway, show me sideways with fins, most people fail at that altogether.

Regarding the fish thing, note that fish don't have independent rear fins, so of course they have to use pectorals for direction.

Tell that to the Coelacanth, the eel or the oarfish.

We have independent rear feet and as such have the ability to go forwards and backwards,

One word for you: Seals
Also:
Four fined pleosaurs ruled the seas far longer than anything that came after them.

rotate on a 0 radius, shuffle sideways, and create positive and negative lift using just our fins requiring no motion from your hands at all.

Most people think a sideway shuffle to be impossible.

If you need to use your hands, you don't know how to kick properly.

correct

If you are in heavy vegetation, you won't be able to go backwards regardless because you will get stuck, especially in sidemount where you have a nice gap between your tanks and body that would love to trap vegetation.

Doing that 'constantly', rarely get 'trapped' anymore.

I have been technical diving since 2009 and never once have I had to use my hands for propulsion.

How would you even know if you never tried to?

I know that isn't as long as his holiness Steve, and his grace HP,

No it isn't, but I am probably the only one here who would not care
If Steve wasn't always right, I would surely contradict him occasionally

but I have been in many environments and have never encountered a need for my hands as propulsion in that manner.

Me neither, but just because I do not need something I should not be unable to use it to my advantage.

The only time I have had to use my hands is in high flow caves for pull and glide,

Pull and glide is equally useful in many strong current or limited visibility open water situations.

or in very narrow restrictions where it is safer to use your hands to pull/push/navigate, but it is never moving water, always holding onto something and navigating that way. I honestly have no more accurate maneuverability with my hands than I do with my fins.

As I said, show me minimal movement. A full finstroke will take you a certain minimal distance and slow motion cannot completely avoid movement.
I often get in situations where I 'freeze' the movement of the fins because I do not know what is touching them. Using the hands than to turn your body while holding still is often surprisingly useful.