Advanced open water question

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The person(s) who are talking about doing "Intro to Tech" course in lieu of a recreational "Advanced Scuba Diver" course here in this thread are people who are talking through their hat and are indeed giving a horribly wrong advice. In fact, they are doing a total disservice that can and will be detrimental to the new certified student who is looking for advice here. Their justifications for this line of thinking are grossly uninformed and totally prejudicial and certainly ignorant. The “accusation” and the insinuation that the average recreational dive instructor doesn’t know how to teach proper diving skills including buoyancy are not only just unprofessional and can only come out from a person who appears to hold a grudge and has no background in diver training and shouldn’t be giving advice in this realm. One can live in a false world of grander with thoughts of superiority just because they hold certifications in “technical diving” but they should keep that to themselves, not play the role of a dive educator, and give most ignorant and unprofessional advice to the uninitiated recently certified diver.



Forgetting about taking any type of a technical course (including Fundies), I'd advise taking a recreational advanced course. This advanced course should give the student more "practical" knowledge in diving including:

1. The course would concentrate on giving the student more experience in dealing with practical open water dynamics (dealing with various openwater conditions such as tides, currents, waves, etc.).

2. Advanced buoyancy control

3. Night diving

4. Advanced navigation skills

5. Proper planning procedures and skills to increase sense of prevention of issues at all levels (equipment, environment, buddy, etc.).

6. Introduction to deeper diving.

7. Better buddy diving procedures.

8. Review of rescue skills

9. Review and recognition of unsafe diving conditions and potential threats (marine life and water conditions, entry and exist points).

10. Knowledge of local marine life and its effect on divers (hunting and dangerous marine life).

11. Proper techniques for water entry and exist (shore with all of its types including sandy, rock, etc. and boat).

12. The are many other issues addressed in the advanced diver course but the ultimate goal is creating more independent skilled safe divers who have the wisdom, courage and foresight to call off a dive when they determine that the dive is unsafe for them or their dive-buddy in anyway.



My advice is to take the advanced course immediately after the entry-level course and not wait much longer after the entry-level course. In fact, I believe that delaying this advanced course to do 20 - 30 dives in between the courses is a negative thing to do. The whole point of the advanced course is to condense a dive season's worth of experience into a single course (6 - 10 dives) done under a professional instructor who will guide them to become better and safe more experienced divers. The 20-30 dives in between the courses would only manage to create a false sense of experience away from professional supervision. We all know that the dive experience gained in the entry-level course (in various degrees accounting to the difference between instructors and agencies with various levels of standards quality) is insignificant and doesn’t provide the certified student with adequate experience to manage diving on their own in anything beyond most ideal diving conditions.



I am speaking from a NAUI instructor/agency point of view where emphasis is on skill and experience not in merely “sampling” various specialties where one does not acquire real advanced diving skills in the “sampler” course. I believe that the advanced course should and must focus on the core skills that create the best background for the certified student to become a self-sufficient dive buddy who can execute dives on their own in their diving locale.
 
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Personally unless your OW class includes rescue skills I'd do Rescue before AOW and strongly encourage my students to do so..
Whether you can do this or not is agency-dependent.
 
do not comment on my dive education experience as you have no idea of my background, which does come from dive education, just not from an LDS perspective. It is also NAUI based as an FYI. I do however agree whole heartedly in taking either AOW or ItT ASAP instead of waiting as the waiting can only serve to create bad habits unless you have good mentors locally
 
The person(s) who are talking about doing "Intro to Tech" course in lieu of a recreational "Advanced Scuba Diver" course here in this thread are people who are talking through their hat and are indeed giving a horribly wrong advice. In fact, they are doing a total disservice that can and will be detrimental to the new certified student who is looking for advice here. Their justifications for this line of thinking are grossly uninformed and totally prejudicial and certainly ignorant. The “accusation” and the insinuation that the average recreational dive instructor doesn’t know how to teach proper diving skills including buoyancy are not only just unprofessional and can only come out from a person who appears to hold a grudge and has no background in diver training and shouldn’t be giving advice in this realm. One can live in a false world of grander with thoughts of superiority just because they hold certifications in “technical diving” but they should keep that to themselves, not play the role of a dive educator, and give most ignorant and unprofessional advice to the uninitiated recently certified diver.
So, how do you REALLY feel? :)
 
Everyone has their own experiences from training, and (potentially) how people instruct their own classes.

I have 4 different agencies names on cards in my wallet. All 'recreational' certifications (3 different nitrox, 1 specialized equipment repair, 1 OW, 1 AOW, 2 drysuit, 2 fundies, 1 wreck, 1 DPV ... some overlap but state in their description on the card - i.e. nitrox and drysuit)


Calling me wrong about suggesting a 'intro' to tech (still recreational) course is flat out wrong. Just as it's wrong for me to say to you of suggesting such a "AOW" course that requires at least 8 different experience dives after that statement (based on your 12 criteria) is wrong.

The OP has a great shop (Dan's) and asked an opinion. Some of us suggested (before knowing they were training at Dan's) an intro class rather than an AOW. We never said it was wrong to do AOW (and I never will, but will present another option if a piece of plastic doesn't have to say AOW on it ... I haven't needed a card that said AOW before).


BRad
 
Thanks all! Some very sound advice all around, answered my original question and then some haha, I'll sticking to the plan of doing an AOW just so I can start going deeper and getting more dive experience. I like what you said CazzA

I wouldn't mind paying a bit more, reading a bit more, and learning a bit longer if they did that. As long as the pace of content is relatively easy to follow that is.

I am going to Allegro Cozumel with dans dive shop in April and be doing my OW check out dives down there. Still struggling with whether to either do a nitrox course, or the dive shop trip planner said I could follow up with an AOW course for pretty cheap too like $170 cad., or just to finish the check out dives and enjoy my vaycay.... it'll become more clear as the time gets closer.

Definitely get your Nitrox done. Do it now before the trip. It's all classroom so there's no diving required and whether you get into technical diving or not, you'll want access to Nitrox for just about any recreational diving, including the dives on your trip.

As far as AOW goes, since you have an interest in historic wrecks I would do the wreck (obviously). This will be a good experience as you'll get familiar with navigating these monster ships, surveying them for your notes and getting a better understanding of how wreck diving changes your approach to diving them, including dealing with currents created by the wreck and the dangers of navigating around them. Peak performance buoyancy should give you the most skilled based education of all the dives. You'll learn different kick styles, buoyancy control using your lungs, better trim, navigating with tight turns while holding a perfect depth, etc. All of these skills will lay the foundation for if and when you start doing technical wreck diving involving penetration. Finally, since you'll be in Cozumel I would do the drift diving. Since most wrecks have strong currents it will be a good experience to learn how to handle them and drift diving will add more skills to what your future intentions are, not to mention, It's my understanding drift diving is what you do in Cozumel. On your vacation, if they offer a night dive. Do it! It's cool, it's fun, it's a different type of dive and not to mention it will again play into the experience of diving in pitch black wrecks if and when you decide to move forward to technical wreck diving.

I hope this helps. It sounds like you're going in the right direction. I'll add that once you have your AOW and Nitrox certification, you can do the Deep Diver specialty which will introduce you to simulated deco and you'll have then met the prerequisites for advanced recreational trimix. Skipping courses like advanced Nitrox. From there you'll be leaving recreational training and entering technical diving.

Good luck, enjoy your trip! :wink:
 
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Back to the AOW route ...

Its now Deep and Navigation? Thought it was Navigation and PPB doing fin pivots and Budda hovers ... (or all 3, dunno)

Adding in Nitrox (and subsequently what ever else is required to get the Nitrox card) and then something that mirrors the diving you are or want to be doing (say wreck? drysuit?) and then finishing off those courses as well.

BRad
 
[QUOTE="bradells, post: 7611282, member: 414705"
Its now Deep and Navigation? Thought it was Navigation and PPB doing fin pivots and Budda hovers ... (or all 3, dunno)[/QUOTE]
LOL. This post is either unsuccessfully trying to be cute, or is ignorant. I can't tell which. It has never been Nav and PPB, and Deep has always been required. Also, PPB has not suggested (and never required) fin pivot for 5 years. Hover has never even suggested Buddha position, although of course it IS a hover, which is what is required.
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Edit: I removed the statement that was perceived as a direct personal attack (I got a very hurt PM from the target), and said something more factual. The new phrase is in italics.
 
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Back to the AOW route ...

Its now Deep and Navigation? Thought it was Navigation and PPB doing fin pivots and Budda hovers ... (or all 3, dunno)...

BRad

Let's continue to propagate the myths. Much better than facts any day.
 
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OK, here is a quick history of AOW.

This certification level was first created by Orange County in the mid 1960s in response to the observation that most divers were getting certified, doing a little diving,and then dropping out. The thinking was that by introducing them to different aspects of diving, they might find an area of interest. That is why there are different kinds of dives required. NAUI, which grew out of Orange County originally and maintained close ties, followed suit shortly after. PADI came after that. The goal for all was to expose divers to different kinds of diving in the hope of spurring interest, not producing expert divers. That is why PADI eventually changed the name of the program (although not the name of the certification) to Adventures in Diving.

PADI's program used to require Deep Diving, Navigation, and Night Diving. Night diving was dropped as a requirement largely because many places in the world cannot do night diving very easily without having students start dives around midnight or in ice cold environments.
 

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