Sidemount Power Inflation

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Jesus when you say get back to the stage and its ''gone'' you mean as if someone else took it? That would scare the **** out of me. I like how meticulous you are with the planning though so that that wouldn't even phase you!

---------- Post added December 2nd, 2015 at 11:02 PM ----------

No, it does not run out.

If it does, buoyancy (should be neutral) is hopefully a minor concern.
I really didn't mean gone so much as when you were finished with that tank. I didn't realize multiple switches were made during the dive.
 
However, I'll suggest a minor revision to the bold portion of the statement above.

I didn't go into the depths of the gas volume and at which points i switch, just that the switches took place... i made no mention of how many times. This was intentional, as the OP asked what is clearly a very basic question, so to go on and baffle him with a complicated answer (complicated to somebody who appears to be new to this) would not have been a good option (in my opinion)

My gas management strategy appears very similar to yours, i too dive thirds on deeper dives or overhead environments.... although my strategy appears to vary slightly from yours. I work out my "magic number" which is taking my lowest volume cylinder and dropping to a value easily divisible by 3. For example, if i have 220 bar in one cylinder, 230 bar in the other, i'll use the 210 bar (easier to divide by 3) as my baseline. Making 70 bar IN, 70 bar OUT and the rest, in this case 80 bar in one, 90 bar in the other for CONTINGENCY as my gas figures.

Now i start my dive on the long hose, and use just 1/6th of the cylinder, (35Bar) before switching to my short hose, i now conduct a switch at 1/3rds from this point throughout the dive, making a total of just 4 switches throughout the entire dive.... 1 after the first 6th of the right cylinder, 1 after the first 3rd of the left cylinder, 1 after the next 3rd of the right cylinder and finally 1 after the next 3rd of the left, leaving just the last 6th or part thereof to breath on my long hose to end the dive..... leaving a full 3rd (or more usually) in both cylinders..... so 4 switches overall compared to your 2. But this is only because i like to start the process with use of just a 6th of gas breathed before the first switch... and this is simply because it means i have no more than a 6th difference between cylinders at any time.

With steels this doesn't make any difference what so ever, but if diving Aluminium cylinders, this keeps them much more similarly buoyant throughout the dive and prevents any off-balance being caused by cylinders. And starting on my right cylinder/long hose means i have it in my mouth for very quick and simple Primary Donate, should I need to at the riskiest points of the dive... the very beginning, when somebody may jump in with valves off, or find a catastrophic failure that had gone un-noticed.... then at the turn point, i'm on my long hose, and then again in the final portion of the dive when if somebody has screwed up they could be low on gas, i'm again on my long hose.....

For me... the benefits of more even pressures and therefore cylinder buoyancy plus the added safety of having the long hose in my mouth at the riskiest parts of the dive, make an extra two gas regulator switches well worth it.... after all, it's not a taxing process to switch regulators, and if anybody thinks it is, they should consider going back to backmount!

diving with stage/deco cylinders changes the maths slightly... but not hugely... I wouldn't advocate deviating from the rule of thirds, i would just use it as extra safety margin......
 
I didn't go into the depths of the gas volume and at which points i switch, just that the switches took place... i made no mention of how many times. This was intentional, as the OP asked what is clearly a very basic question, so to go on and baffle him with a complicated answer (complicated to somebody who appears to be new to this) would not have been a good option (in my opinion)..../

~No offense was intended, I just wanted to clarify that keeping the tank pressures "close" has a wide range of definitions.

With 1/3, 2/3, 1/3 and 2 switches I'm on the minimalist end, while with 1/6, 1/3, 1/3, 1/6 and 4 switches you're more middle of the road.

What I caution against are divers who think they need to with every few hundred psi, and/or don't understand how much gas they really need on one side to exit if gas is lost on the other side. That's over kill on the one hand, and bad planning on the other.

----

As for giving a long answer rather than a short answer the reader can absorb as much as he or she likes, and even if they skim over most of it, the message is sent that there are different ways to do it, but that it's part of an overall plan - or should be. Again, what I want to avoid is giving someone the impression they have to switch every few hundred psi to keep the tanks "balanced". I've seen divers with that misperception going back 25 years to back mounted independent doubles, where the same 1/3, 2/3, 1/3 gas switch methodology works just fine.

----

We used to use a 7' hose on the right tank and a short hose on the left tank. But given that we dive in mixed teams now and then, we eventually migrated to a 5' hose on each tank. I run the left side hose up and around the back of my neck, like you normally would with a stage bottle in back mount - but it has a bungee loop on the reg, loose enough to pull free if needed by an OOG diver. This leaves a very short u shaped loop of hose on the tank. The reg for the right tank is clipped to the right shoulder D-ring, and with either a zip tie, or a rubber snorkel keeper (placed over the mouthpiece, through the bolt snap, and back over the mouth piece) it can again be pulled free quickly if needed by an OOG diver - or by yourself when the OOG diver takes the one in your mouth - with no need to fumble with a bolt snap. The hose itself, makes one loop down to the bottom of the tank and back up so it's clean and easy to re-stow. The major risk is running the tail and bolt snap through the loop, which would prevent quickly donating all 5'. However an S drill will easily detect that issue if you miss it when clipping on the tank.

In any case, it means that regardless of what reg you are using, it's on a 5' hose and can be easily donated and kept by the OOG diver. 5' is also long enough to get divers through restrictions in trail - it's snug but do-able, and in larger passage it's as easy to swim as a 7 ft hose.

---------- Post added December 3rd, 2015 at 05:39 PM ----------

Jesus when you say get back to the stage and its ''gone'' you mean as if someone else took it? That would scare the **** out of me. I like how meticulous you are with the planning though so that that wouldn't even phase you!

---------- Post added December 2nd, 2015 at 11:02 PM ----------


I really didn't mean gone so much as when you were finished with that tank. I didn't realize multiple switches were made during the dive.

If it's not kept on you for the entire dive, you never want to have to rely on it being there when you need it. Even when the gas stays with you for the entire dive, you want to plan lost gas scenarios assuming lost gas from any one tank.

That means a stage in this case, but it also applies to a deco bottle you may leave in the cavern zone. It's not unknown for an open water diver, even a well meaning open water diver to "find" your tank and rescue it for you. Now and then one gets turned in at the front desk at Ginnie Springs - where I assume the would be good Samaritan gets yelled at for removing it.

If you're planning to do your deco on 100% O2, it will take about twice as long to do on 32% nitrox, and longer on a leaner mix, so you need the reserve gas in your primary tanks to support the longer deco. On a deeper trimix dive, with a shallow section of cave before the deep point of the dive, we'll take a travel gas like 32% (or 30/30 on dives with higher percentage helium trimixes where isobaric counter diffusion issues might develop) in a stage to use as a travel mix to avoid using the leaner oxygen content (and much more expensive) high percentage trimix we need on the deep portion of the dive in shallow cave where it's not needed. It also serves as a first deco gas on the way out. If the O2 isn't in the cavern when you get back, it's helpful to have had that for initial deco, and for what's left to speed the deco before you have to switch to the bottom mix to finish the longer lost gas deco schedule.

More than you need to know maybe, but feel free to ignore it. The main point is that gas planning is one of the primary skills learned in technical wreck, cave, or decompression dive training - and one of the major reasons you need that training, and the major reason why you can't just fly a computer.
 
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~No offense was intended, I just wanted to clarify that keeping the tank pressures "close" has a wide range of definitions.

With 1/3, 2/3, 1/3 and 2 switches I'm on the minimalist end, while with 1/6, 1/3, 1/3, 1/6 and 4 switches you're more middle of the road.

What I caution against are divers who think they need to with every few hundred psi, and/or don't understand how much gas they really need on one side to exit if gas is lost on the other side. That's over kill on the one hand, and bad planning on the other.

----

As for giving a long answer rather than a short answer the reader can absorb as much as he or she likes, and even if they skim over most of it, the message is sent that there are different ways to do it, but that it's part of an overall plan - or should be. Again, what I want to avoid is giving someone the impression they have to switch every few hundred psi to keep the tanks "balanced". I've seen divers with that misperception going back 25 years to back mounted independent doubles, where the same 1/3, 2/3, 1/3 gas switch methodology works just fine.

----

We used to use a 7' hose on the right tank and a short hose on the left tank. But given that we dive in mixed teams now and then, we eventually migrated to a 5' hose on each tank. I run the left side hose up and around the back of my neck, like you normally would with a stage bottle in back mount - but it has a bungee loop on the reg, loose enough to pull free if needed by an OOG diver. This leaves a very short u shaped loop of hose on the tank. The reg for the right tank is clipped to the right shoulder D-ring, and with either a zip tie, or a rubber snorkel keeper (placed over the mouthpiece, through the bolt snap, and back over the mouth piece) it can again be pulled free quickly if needed by an OOG diver - or by yourself when the OOG diver takes the one in your mouth - with no need to fumble with a bolt snap. The hose itself, makes one loop down to the bottom of the tank and back up so it's clean and easy to re-stow. The major risk is running the tail and bolt snap through the loop, which would prevent quickly donating all 5'. However an S drill will easily detect that issue if you miss it when clipping on the tank.

In any case, it means that regardless of what reg you are using, it's on a 5' hose and can be easily donated and kept by the OOG diver. 5' is also long enough to get divers through restrictions in trail - it's snug but do-able, and in larger passage it's as easy to swim as a 7 ft hose.

---------- Post added December 3rd, 2015 at 05:39 PM ----------



If it's not kept on you for the entire dive, you never want to have to rely on it being there when you need it. Even when the gas stays with you for the entire dive, you want to plan lost gas scenarios assuming lost gas from any one tank.

That means a stage in this case, but it also applies to a deco bottle you may leave in the cavern zone. It's not unknown for an open water diver, even a well meaning open water diver to "find" your tank and rescue it for you. Now and then one gets turned in at the front desk at Ginnie Springs - where I assume the would be good Samaritan gets yelled at for removing it.

If you're planning to do your deco on 100% O2, it will take about twice as long to do on 32% nitrox, and longer on a leaner mix, so you need the reserve gas in your primary tanks to support the longer deco. On a deeper trimix dive, with a shallow section of cave before the deep point of the dive, we'll take a travel gas like 32% (or 30/30 on dives with higher percentage helium trimixes where isobaric counter diffusion issues might develop) in a stage to use as a travel mix to avoid using the leaner oxygen content (and much more expensive) high percentage trimix we need on the deep portion of the dive in shallow cave where it's not needed. It also serves as a first deco gas on the way out. If the O2 isn't in the cavern when you get back, it's helpful to have had that for initial deco, and for what's left to speed the deco before you have to switch to the bottom mix to finish the longer lost gas deco schedule.

More than you need to know maybe, but feel free to ignore it. The main point is that gas planning is one of the primary skills learned in technical wreck, cave, or decompression dive training - and one of the major reasons you need that training, and the major reason why you can't just fly a computer.
I may not have a full grasp yet but trust me I read it all. I am a newb but I really am not interested by corals and simply looking at pretty fish. What I want to do, I will need to learn the things you guys are saying and I don't mind starting now. Will be taking sidemount with Edd Sorensen in the spring, and wreck diving a good bit this summer and into next winter (hoping to hit the keys again).
 
The main point is that gas planning is one of the primary skills learned in technical wreck, cave, or decompression dive training - and one of the major reasons you need that training, and the major reason why you can't just fly a computer.

+1 and why you can't (or shouldn't) learn from the internet either... If you're looking at progressing your diving into overhead environments, (which includes mandatory deco) then you really must take good quality training from a well reputed instructor....
 
+1 and why you can't (or shouldn't) learn from the internet either... If you're looking at progressing your diving into overhead environments, (which includes mandatory deco) then you really must take good quality training from a well reputed instructor....
I wasn't planning to learn from the internet dude...... Over head does not include mandatory deco either. I have been consulting with one of the top instructors in the field of cave diving and will be starting soon. All I need is 25 dives and be comfortable in the water. I'm starting to get a case of the know it alls from you guy. Edd told me to ignore people like you and I think I will. Learning from the internet and being inquisitive are two different things. The post was about a power inflator not how to do deco from 500 feet with no experience. Give me a break. Maybe you should read this article. https://www.tdisdi.com/not-all-tech-divers-are-aholes/


---------- Post added December 4th, 2015 at 07:27 AM ----------

TDI clearly states for full cave certifications:
[h=3]Course prerequisites:[/h]
  • Minimum age 18
  • Minimum certification of TDI Introductory Cave Diver, or equivalent
  • If decompression dives are to be conducted in training, the student must be TDI Decompression Procedures certified or equivalent, or this training may be conducted concurrently. If courses are taught concurrently, ALL requirements for both courses must be met and registrations processed upon completion.

https://www.tdisdi.com/tdi/get-certified/full-cave-diver/
No where does it say that deco is mandatory but simply mandatory if a deco dive is being performed. And that is for full cave certification.

How this went from me asking a power inflator question to being chastised about reading information presented to me is beyond me.

 
As far as I can see, nobody has chastised you at all, you seem a little sensitive?

You misunderstood my post regarding mandatory deco, perhaps I wasn't clear, apologies. The Point I was intending to make is that for the purposes of planning gas, even in open water, a dive involving mandatory deco is treated like an overhead environment as for all intents purposes there is a ceiling that must not be breached.

No chastising was ever intended... Relax
 
let's go dive a few times in one of the PDRA quarries before you meander down to cave country. Show you some of the things you are asking about. Edd is a good friend of mine and we can show you some of the things he will look for in the class so you aren't blindsided. FWIW DA Aquamaster is a legit diver, so feel free to listen to what he has to say.
 
let's go dive a few times in one of the PDRA quarries before you meander down to cave country. Show you some of the things you are asking about. Edd is a good friend of mine and we can show you some of the things he will look for in the class so you aren't blindsided. FWIW DA Aquamaster is a legit diver, so feel free to listen to what he has to say.
I will be glad to go hit a PDRA quarry with you bro! I am not saying I want to all of a sudden bust into tech diving doing the hardest stuff. I would love to dive with someone who knows what hes going to expect for sure. He really did tell me not to worry about waiting years to get into it and actually advised me that if I had 25 dives, I should come on down (for sidemount and cavern). If I was comfortable in the water, which I am. Being that I wont be diving much during the off season, I want to work on some skills as soon as I am back in the water. Call me crazy but I enjoy doing drills and skills as much as just swimming around.

As far as learning online is concerned...I have no doubt that I can only get real time experience to make me a better diver. I really didn't intend to get some of the replies but I am sure not just going to ignore them when someone took the time to explain that stuff to me. I can't help what's posted. For me I want to hear about things and decide if I even want to pursue something. I might not understand fully. But I didn't understand a lot of things fully when I first read about them no matter what the subject. Doesn't mean it didn't peak my interest.
 
Jesus when you say get back to the stage and its ''gone'' you mean as if someone else took it? That would scare the **** out of me. I like how meticulous you are with the planning though so that that wouldn't even phase you!

---------- Post added December 2nd, 2015 at 11:02 PM ----------


I really didn't mean gone so much as when you were finished with that tank. I didn't realize multiple switches were made during the dive.
Its been known before of people stealing stage or deco bottles left by cave divers. This is why it is crucial to plan the dive AND plan for contingencies, with "lost deco" being one of them.

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https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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