Expelled PADI instructor?

[demed]

... As far as I understand, PADI has standards that aim to maximize profit, too....

can you elaborate and provide specifics?

---------- Post added October 16th, 2015 at 10:37 PM ----------

It depends on why.

Agencies have different policies. For example, PADI, SSI (GUE?) and some others do not allow an instructor to arbitrarily add material to the course and then test students (and possibly fail them) based on that material. PADI's philosophy is that THEY decide what needs to be taught, not the instructor.

....

PADI's approach has the advantage that it is agency based and very consistent over instructors and geographical regions. It makes their modular system and system of referrals possible. The down side is that some instructors feel (in my opinion erroneously) that they are unable to adequately address local conditions.

...

So all of this is to say that suppose you were kicked out of PADI because you kept adding skill X to the course. They would try to re-calibrate and re-train you for a while but it's possible that the differences in opinion are unbridgeable and you decided as an instructor that you couldn't live with this limitation. (it is unlikely that PADI would actually kick you out for a difference of opinion. The instructor would usually take the initiative). It is, therefore possible that you could then cross over to NAUI and have a free hand in teaching skill X..... it could be a better match.

it sounds like you're advocating that an instructor can arbitrarily add material to a PADI course and fault student for not meeting the instructor's arbitrary standard instead of PADI's

---------- Post added October 16th, 2015 at 10:42 PM ----------

...
Several instructors following standards at the time of the incident have been expelled by PADI so that PADI could isolate themselves from the fallout from a failure of the standards to ensure safety. The standards that PADI put in place.

...

Stores and facilities are almost never punished, and members always are. But anyone who works in the business knows that the safety problems come from what stores and operations are deciding, not what instructors are deciding.

...
You will never have safety when instrcutors are allowed to work on visas which tie them to one specific operation. We used to call indentured servitude by its name. Now we call it H-2 visas.

how many is several? where did you read that they were indeed "following standards"?

A shop does not teach, an instructor does - an instructor who can demonstrate that was forced by a facility to violate standards should be able to shift blame pretty easil;y - can you show us some first hand example where this did not happen?

---------- Post added October 16th, 2015 at 10:44 PM ----------

How is it different for instructors in other agencies? Isn't pay to play pretty much how it is?

Oh no, other agencies are ALL non-for-profit entities where instructors get actually paid by the agency for being accorded the privilege of teaching

---------- Post added October 16th, 2015 at 10:49 PM ----------

Something I would like to point out, not every instructor that has been expelled from an agency was expelled due to something serious. Take into account how far up in the ranks an IT/Instructor can go and eventually, that IT/Instructor will have a target on his/her back because someone isnt happy. Case in point, an IT doesnt complete a class for someone due to monetary reasons and there is no paperwork showing the student completed the course, the student requests the agency send him his certification and the agency requests paperwork from the instructor showing the student completed the course. The paperwork doesnt exists and the agency is informed of that but the agency still insists on getting the paperwork. A QA is filed by the agency for not having the paperwork. Later on, another instructor trains 4-5 students and doesnt register his student online so the IT in charge of the facility gets a QA 4 months after the IT left the agency for not registering students that he didnt train as well as being told he should have sent in the paperwork for the first students instructor course that the student didnt complete. The end result is an IT gets expelled from the agency he is no longer affiliated with.

Not everyone that gets expelled has performed a heinous act. Some get fed up with the BS and politics and the agency gets butthurt because they cant punish someone that isnt with them any longer.

OP, ask the instructor about it. There might be a valid reason he isnt with PADI or a different agency. If he BSes around or gets upset about you asking about info from the person you are paying and trusting with your life, then find another instructor. If he explains what happened and it seems justified to you, then maybe you have someone you can work with. Your call in the end.

you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Britt]

you don't know what you are talking about.

Would you like to explain to me how I wouldnt know about a situation that I witnessed? Im guessing you are the All Knowing, All Seeing Instructor and no one knows anything about the industry other than you.

 

[demed]

Would you like to explain to me how I wouldnt know about a situation that I witnessed? Im guessing you are the All Knowing, All Seeing Instructor and no one knows anything about the industry other than you.

If you knew what you were talking about you'd be aware that while non-payment is reason for withholding certification, there is no valid reason for not doing paperwork for each and every student before classroom work starts.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

 

[gcarter]

If you knew what you were talking about you'd be aware that while non-payment is reason for withholding certification, there is no valid reason for not doing paperwork for each and every student before classroom work starts.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

He DID say "no paperwork showing the student completed the course"... surely that is not completed before the classroom work?

 

[Britt]

If you knew what you were talking about you'd be aware that while non-payment is reason for withholding certification, there is no valid reason for not doing paperwork for each and every student before classroom work starts.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

Please read before you reply next time. If you certify your students before they start the course, thats your call. I DO NOT complete the paperwork for someone until they finish the course.

An extra 10 seconds of reading would have solved this issue before you ever posted. Since I was discussing the procedure for certifying an Instructor, I guess its probably safe to say...

you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[demed]

You start with paperwork before the class starts, liability releases and so on, you track class progress, log dives, exams or class records as these happen, and you can have plenty of records and paperwork regardless of filing a certification.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

 

[gcarter]

Something I would like to point out, not every instructor that has been expelled from an agency was expelled due to something serious. Take into account how far up in the ranks an IT/Instructor can go and eventually, that IT/Instructor will have a target on his/her back because someone isnt happy. Case in point, an IT doesnt complete a class for someone due to monetary reasons and there is no paperwork showing the student completed the course, the student requests the agency send him his certification and the agency requests paperwork from the instructor showing the student completed the course. The paperwork doesnt exists and the agency is informed of that but the agency still insists on getting the paperwork. A QA is filed by the agency for not having the paperwork. Later on, another instructor trains 4-5 students and doesnt register his student online so the IT in charge of the facility gets a QA 4 months after the IT left the agency for not registering students that he didnt train as well as being told he should have sent in the paperwork for the first students instructor course that the student didnt complete. The end result is an IT gets expelled from the agency he is no longer affiliated with.

You start with paperwork before the class starts, liability releases and so on, you track class progress, log dives, exams or class records as these happen, and you can have plenty of records and paperwork regardless of filing a certification.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

Key words highlighted. Regardless what OTHER paperwork might exists. how do you provide paperwork demonstrating completion, when the student did not complete?

 

[demed]

Key words highlighted. Regardless what OTHER paperwork might exists. how do you provide paperwork demonstrating completion, when the student did not complete?

You're so right, agencies are so stupid and bent on getting instructors with impeccable records to weed out the good ones and keep the bad apples, all to satisfy the egos of dishonest and deadbeat customers.
But no, no agency would sanction an instructor for withholding certification for non payment. Not would unreasonably require non existent documentation once the instructor has clarified his or her stance.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

 

[gcarter]

You're so right, agencies are so stupid and bent on getting instructors with impeccable records to weed out the good ones and keep the bad apples, all to satisfy the egos of dishonest and deadbeat customers.
But no, no agency would sanction an instructor for withholding certification for non payment. Not would unreasonably require non existent documentation once the instructor has clarified his or her stance.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

Thank you for a) the sarcasm (it adds so much to the conversation), and b) the dodge. The point you were arguing was based on an incorrect read of the post. I am making no comment on the agency OR on what other issues if any may exist with the poster's anecdote. Please do not attribute such to me.

 

[demed]

What I am trying to explain is that everyone is 100% sure their agency is doing everything possible to make sure they thrive and survive... until they find that the agency only looks out for its own best interests. The Guilty before proven Innocent concept is BS and not everyone that has been expelled was expelled for a justifiable reason. To automatically assume that someone that has been expelled did something wrong is almost as stupid as assuming the guy that shot someone breaking into his house is guilty of leaving his door open so he could kill someone.

the BS here is trying to build an argument where you have no facts to speak of. you sound very much like another disgruntled instructor or friend of another disgruntled instructor.

There are a lot of narrow counter-examples that could be given, and as for being connected to events, as an IT, I get connected to a lot of events. Instructors swimming away from their students and leaving them with an AOW, other ITs completing an ITC from 1000 miles away over the phone, students receiving certifications without completing the required dives, agencies fudging paperwork to pacify a student, instructors taking money for a class knowing that they arent certified to teach the class, uncertified divers finishing an open water dives with a master diver and the instructor diving with their significant other instead of being with the student. I could go on for hours on the things I have seen, but the end result is that instructors here are telling someone that is concerned about an instructor that the instructor is guilty because he has been expelled before the instructors or the OP even know what the person was guilty of. When the SHTF for one of you and you get expelled for something you didnt do, you might look back on this and wish someone might have stood up for you and helped you prove your innocence before they tell everyone that if you got expelled, you are guilty of something, even if they dont know what you are guilty of.

see above comment - again vague accusations to justify one own lacking behavior

One last note... quit looking at agencies as the be all, end all of the dive industry. They are businesses and will do what they want to survive and hang out anyone necessary to cover their own. There are instances that the agency does the right thing, but put them in a position of dropping someone to prevent any hassles and see how fast the letter gets sent out. The rose colored glasses are a blinder, not a fashion accessory.

no facts, no names, just wind - sorry pal, your argument looks as grounded as your website.