Scuba agencies

[The Chairman]

Ah then, what constitutes "best"? Those who are convinced that best=most rigorous choose one agency. Those who feel that best=easy choose another. I don't believe that either extreme is "best". There's a balance between fun, control and ultimately safety and so I choose NASE as the agency I certify OW students under. I choose the agency that fits me best and potential students should choose the instructor that fits them best. If you want to have loads of fun, have awesome control and be an exemplary diver, then I'm your Huckleberry. You'll be required to think and you will discover that trim//buoyancy aren't the dark arts everyone makes them out to be. I teach NASE because I like their philosophy that every dive has only one descent and ascent with a safety stop. It's safer for the instructor and sets the proper example for the students. I also like their philosophy that there should be no kneeling during Scuba. Moreover, students are required to remain trim and neutral throughout every dive and not just for ninety seconds at a time. As a perk, snorkels are not required during scuba dives.

Agencies don't train divers: instructors do. Agencies don't certify divers: instructors do. Choose the instructor that fits you and don't worry about the agency. That's the instructor's job.

 

[tbone1004]

yes, GUE trumps all.

Other than that, no, instructor matters. Look at your long term diving goals and find your instructor accordingly.

Lorenzoid, so look at my original response to the OP above.

Answered his literal question, and then answered his actual question, which is look at what you want to do and then find the instructor that will help you do that. If you want to have fun reef diving, learn to dive from an instructor who is good at that. If you're long term goals are to cave dive, then find an instructor who will help you get to that point, etc etc. You guys are harping at the first four words I wrote without reading the next two sentences.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Lorenzoid, so look at my original response to the OP above.

Answered his literal question, and then answered his actual question, which is look at what you want to do and then find the instructor that will help you do that. If you want to have fun reef diving, learn to dive from an instructor who is good at that. If you're long term goals are to cave dive, then find an instructor who will help you get to that point, etc etc. You guys are harping at the first four words I wrote without reading the next two sentences.

The two got muddled at some point. Perhaps not your fault. I don't know why you felt compelled to answer the literal question, but no big deal as far as I'm concerned. Indeed, I agree that GUE is awesome, mainly because their quality assurance seems to keep instruction quality so consistent across all their instructors. Quality can vary so much from instructor to instructor with the major agencies.

 

[Simon-]

So because someone feels that a particular agency is "the best", it must be, no question.

How arrogant a view is that?

 

[The Chairman]

So because someone feels that a particular agency is "the best", it must be, no question.

How arrogant a view is that?

Why label that as arrogant? It's a matter of brand loyalty. "My Chevy is best!" is no different a statement than X is the best agency. Again, it has to do with the quantifier 'best'. I remember that so many were upset that DIR stood for 'Do it Right', meaning that no one else was capable of that. Heck, I might have been one of them. Most of those people had no problem with the company named 'Dive Rite', simply because there was no emotional baggage with them. Because the term is so nebulous, the FCC has determined that any product can call itself the best without worrying about truth in advertising laws.

Here in the Keys, we are known for our Key Lime Pie. Most shops you go into advertise theirs as award winning or blue ribbon pies. Ask them who gave them that award and watch their eyes go wide. It's nuthin' but hype! Award Winning=Blue Ribbon=Best=Favorite=THE ONE I AM SELLING RIGHT NOW=THE ONE I JUST BOUGHT. That's just as true for instructors as it is agencies and any other Scuba entity. It's the opposite of that attitude that says "If I don't sell, dive or teach it, then it must be crap." Nothing to get your panties in a bunch for.

 

[scubadada]

Most people are not going to do their initial training with GUE, find yourself a good instructor with a mainline organization and get yourself diving.

 

[TSandM]

I spent quite a long time in the water last night, with a student who had severe apprehension problems. On the prior pool night, she had never stayed underwater more than 30 seconds, and that was true of the first ten or fifteen minutes of last night, too. I worked with her, one-on-one, until I coaxed her into swimming around the shallow end of the pool with me. She came up BEAMING. The rest of the session went very well for her (except for a bit of trouble with mask clearing, which is one of her big fears).

Does this student need an instructor who can juggle three bottles? No. This student needs someone with ENORMOUS patience, and a sympathetic and light-hearted approach, coupled with the sense of when to apply the stick. She may not, by the end of the class, be ready for a really strict insistence on perfect buoyancy and trim. I will consider her class a complete success if she has mastered her mask anxieties, and has enough control of buoyancy and trim to do no damage to the environment. If she wants to emulate Andrew Georgitsis in the 5thD-X trim video, she will need more training and more work.

Even with GUE, some of it comes down to the instructor. I have had many excellent instructional experiences with GUE classes, and one very bad one, which was due to a combination of factors, but among them was a very poor choice of an instructor for ME, who I am and the way I learn. ANY learning experience is going to depend on the fit between teacher and student, whether it's diving or anything else. That's why I very carefully constructed my earlier posts in this thread to say that going with GUE will guarantee that you get someone whose own skills are excellent, and whose grasp of the material to be imparted is excellent. I believe GUE tries to train their instructors to be good teachers, but some of that is talent, and some people will always shine more than others.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I'm a GUE-F, GUE Tech 1, and GUE Tech 2 certified diver and GUE is not the best agency for me. It's a fine organization with high standards, but the commitment required to the organization and having to subscribe to the philosophy 100% of the time would take away from my joy of diving rather than add to it.

 

[tbone1004]

So because someone feels that a particular agency is "the best", it must be, no question.

How arrogant a view is that?

if you read my post, you would see that I don't actually like GUE, but that doesn't have any bearing on my opinion of them as an agency. Every post had something about "you may not agree with it", or "I don't agree with it". That still has no bearing on this discussion, no other agency can compete with the quality of their education because while they may have phenomenal instructors, the amount of not so great instructors weighs the average down. This is a precision vs. accuracy discussion. No agency is as precise as GUE, they are all accurate.



Now, what we have here is a target as described above. All of the agencies are on the target, all centered around the same goals. Larger agencies like PADI and NAUI neither are accurate, nor precise. They are on the target, and like this image, they have instructors in the bullseye, but there are enough outliers to make it difficult to manage. Smaller agencies have higher accuracy but the precision isn't there. GUE is the only agency that is precise, and accurate. As an agency that makes them better than the others. The target for all is the same bullseye, the precision is the problem. I don't care who you are, what agency you work for, this information is fact, and you can not deny it. You might be an instructor that is in the bullseye, hell you might have a whole shop that is in the bullseye, but for every one of you in the big agencies there are at least 2 more than are way out of it.

Whether this direction is good for you or not is not up for discussion because it doesn't weigh into the facts. If you can't handle the precision required to stay in the bullseye and you think that being one step out is OK, then that is your decision to make, I made that decision a while ago wrt GUE, but that has no bearing on the fact that they are the only agency to be in that bullseye every time they certify a diver.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

While I understand tbone's point, I question the validity of the yardstick by which we measure scuba training agencies thanks to a very good sociology professor in college.