Does a dive club need liability insurance

[sheeper]

Having a disclaimer on Facebook does not stop a lawsuit and the associated costs to defend. You still have to get a lawyer and that costs, even if you win. It is much easier to just get the insurance. Is the lawyer in your club going to defend you Pro Bono if the club gets sued. You can get sued nowadays for anything. Scuba board past history proves this.

anybody can sue anyone for anything. it is rather hard to sue a "facebook group". there are no "leaders", "officers" nor any kind of structure. it is a social group that happens to meet up and dive.

 

[markmud]

If your group, Facebook or otherwise, is in the public domain, has a disclaimer, and specifies qualification levels for participation in events, you are probably a club. You should register as a 501 (c)7 and incorporate in a business friendly state like Nevada (not in commiefornia where the incorporation tax is $800 per year, regardless of your size).

I performed due diligence work for a prospective club. We could not get a general liability insurance policy that covers members for third party lawsuits or lawsuits from member to member. We can get insurance for errors and omissions, and general liability for officers and directors.

Currently, we are in the pro forma stage of club creation.

The liability issue is a big concern for prospective directors and officers. If we modify our business plan to include training from certified instructors, than liability insurance becomes much easier to obtain.

An earlier poster to this thread used the cliché "if it walks like a duck..." He is correct. Be careful--unless you like litigation from people who feel they are owed utopia regardless of their propensity to do stupid things in potentially dangerous environments (like SCUBA diving beyond their capability and training level).

Just my uneducated opinion.

markm

 

[matt_w]

Just one item of note. Being named as an additional other insured by someone's professional liability policy is not the same as having insurance. It only helps you if the actual insured was part of the incident in question. Having the club named as an other insured will also not prevent club officers from being sued as individuals. We live is a litigious society. If you are going to serve as an officer in a dive club, it is best to assume someone will sue you for something and take appropriate steps to protect yourself.

Some clubs do pay for the liability insurance for officers. I suppose that would depend on the size of the club and their ability to support that. Since people have been sued for posting on scubaboard, I bet they can be sued for what they post on Facebook too. It's sad, but it's what we got.

 

[markmud]

Just one item of note. Being named as an additional other insured by someone's professional liability policy is not the same as having insurance. It only helps you if the actual insured was part of the incident in question. Having the club named as an other insured will also not prevent club officers from being sued as individuals. We live is a litigious society. If you are going to serve as an officer in a dive club, it is best to assume someone will sue you for something and take appropriate steps to protect yourself.

Some clubs do pay for the liability insurance for officers. I suppose that would depend on the size of the club and their ability to support that. Since people have been sued for posting on scubaboard, I bet they can be sued for what they post on Facebook too. It's sad, but it's what we got.

Hey Matt_W,

I concur with your opinion. I have not dealt with certificates of insurance and additional insureds for a while.

What follows is from my recollection:
I specifically recall always demanding that I be a "named additional insured" as your protection was greatest. Being listed as an "additional insured" sets up a pecking order where you are covered up to their limit of liability. A "named additional insured" is actually listed on the policy for that endeavor. I think I am recalling the difference and terminology correctly (IANAL).

My point is that being an "additional insured" may not protect a club member or officer much; the vagaries of insurance law can take a large chunk out of your wallet if you are not educated.

If a person becomes a member of a club, make sure it has a liability insurance policy and try to get a certificate naming you as a "named additional insured."

markm

 

[Ricky B]

If it's a simple dive club, then there is no entity involved. It's an unincorporated association. So the club, which doesn't have much in the way of assets, won't be sued. The people who will be sued will be the people who arguably could have prevented an injury that they arguably had a duty to prevent. Not clear who would have any kind of duty on a pick-up club dive.

This is the kind of thing that gets talked about more than it actually happens (like the estate of a dead buddy suing the surviving buddy).

For absolute safety, don't engage in the sport of diving. Extra bonus: guaranteed not to get the bends/AGE as well!

Short of that, a membership application that is signed by each member that says the member is responsible for his own safety and he assumes the risk of diving, which can include death, paralysis, or severe personal injury, is all that I would require were I an officer of a dive club.

If there is some kind of insurance available and it's cheap (say, $200 per year), that is worthy of consideration.

Keep in mind that homeowner's insurance may provide coverage. Check your policy.

 

[markmud]

If it's a simple dive club, then there is no entity involved. It's an unincorporated association. So the club, which doesn't have much in the way of assets, won't be sued. The people who will be sued will be the people who arguably could have prevented an injury that they arguably had a duty to prevent. Not clear who would have any kind of duty on a pick-up club dive.

This is the kind of thing that gets talked about more than it actually happens (like the estate of a dead buddy suing the surviving buddy).

For absolute safety, don't engage in the sport of diving. Extra bonus: guaranteed not to get the bends/AGE as well!

Short of that, a membership application that is signed by each member that says the member is responsible for his own safety and he assumes the risk of diving, which can include death, paralysis, or severe personal injury, is all that I would require were I an officer of a dive club.

If there is some kind of insurance available and it's cheap (say, $200 per year), that is worthy of consideration.

Keep in mind that homeowner's insurance may provide coverage. Check your policy.

Hey RickyB,

I think your opinion is quite valid. You obviously are a trusting person and have a very optimistic attitude. I wish I shared your attitude. I am more pessimistic; I like covering the contingencies.

I have chosen to join clubs, or use establishments, that pay for insurance, pay for education for their employees, and have assets available to cover the costs of accidents or counsel if sued.

Your risk analysis criteria is different than mine and I respect that. And, I think the people on this thread are trying to get that message across to the OP. Perform a qualitative and quantitative risk analysis and make your decision.

markm

 

[matt_w]

If it's a simple dive club, then there is no entity involved. It's an unincorporated association. So the club, which doesn't have much in the way of assets, won't be sued. The people who will be sued will be the people who arguably could have prevented an injury that they arguably had a duty to prevent. Not clear who would have any kind of duty on a pick-up club dive.

This is the kind of thing that gets talked about more than it actually happens (like the estate of a dead buddy suing the surviving buddy).

For absolute safety, don't engage in the sport of diving. Extra bonus: guaranteed not to get the bends/AGE as well!

Short of that, a membership application that is signed by each member that says the member is responsible for his own safety and he assumes the risk of diving, which can include death, paralysis, or severe personal injury, is all that I would require were I an officer of a dive club.

If there is some kind of insurance available and it's cheap (say, $200 per year), that is worthy of consideration.

Keep in mind that homeowner's insurance may provide coverage. Check your policy.

In general I am with you. Unfortunately when people decide to sue they go wide and even if you did absolutely everything right, you could go bankrupt. I like to think people wouldn't sue a dive club whose sole purpose is providing a common place for people to organize their own dives. However, it is not the members that will sue. It is their families.

The original poster asked if dive clubs need liability insurance. The answer really is that if you need liability insurance, I hope you have it . The people with the most risk will be members with professional ratings that might be seen to be organizing an activity. Fortunately, they probably already have insurance (assuming it is not tied to a particular dive shop) or can easily obtain it.

Liability insurance is generally pretty cheap. Even active instructors are paying under $600 us.

Imagine you invite 10 Facebook people to the local quarry this weekend to dive with you . If a jumbo jet crashes into the quarry and kills 9 of them, someone will decide to
Sue you. All of the families will sue the airline, half of them will also sue the quarry, and a couple of them will sue you. More of them would sue you if you were an instructor teaching a class. It is silly, but it is just how people are.

If you have nothing to lose, don't worry about it. People in Texas and Florida can't lose their house or most of their cars. As the previous poster said, we all have to make our own risk decisions. I carry professional liability insurance anyway, so it is easy for me to say that is the answer.

 

[Ricky B]

My comment is in the context of a simple dive club, which I take to be a group of divers who get together to dive and have barbecues and so on. The club I am envisioning is not incorporated and has no significant assets beyond the unspent dues in the treasurer's bank account. My comments do not apply to clubs that provide instructors, to dive professionals, or to any commercial establishment.

The most likely cause of accidental death is an automobile accident when club members go diving is driving to and from the dive site. In that case, my assumption is that each member (or at least the ones driving) have automobile liability insurance.

What I think would make sense for all dive clubs is to require that each member have DAN or comparable insurance for diving accidents.

While it is true that anyone can sue anybody for anything, in the case of a diving accident resulting in death, the family is not going to want to pay out of their pocket for a lawyer. Almost all lawyers who sue for wrongful death are paid on a contingent-fee basis. You've seen the ads: "No recovery, no fee." Because no one likes to work for free, the lawyer is going to want at least a clear case that someone was negligent. I haven't seen it explained how a club officer could be responsible for the death of a member who dies while diving on club trip any more than the diver's buddy could be.

I am not against insurance for dive clubs, but in the case of a group of divers who join a club to dive and socialize and get group rates, the cost of insurance has to be reasonable. If the cost is cheap, then fine. And I am in no way criticizing any one who wants to buy expensive insurance. That's a valid opinion. I am simply expressing my view in the case of a simple dive club.

Is there even such a thing as liability insurance (that covers death from diving) for such dive clubs?

 

[JG109]

Does anyone know what insurance companies specifically deal with dive clubs?
My club is a medium sized club (40 members) based in central New Jersey, US.
Thanks,
John

 

[Ricky B]

Call some local insurance agents and see if they can steer you to a carrier. And, remember, Google is your friend. Search for "dive club insurance" and see what pops up.