Would You Use A Ponypak

[DaleC]

I wouldn't use that model but I can't say I haven't thought a small bailout mounted beneath my horse collar would be desirable. Perhaps a 9cuft. Just enough for surfacing from a moderate dive. A larger bottle would be impractical. The problem is that it (the bottle) would flap up (or hang down) when diving because the bottom is not secured anywhere.
Not super high on my priority list because I have a 19cuft slung a pony and don't want to buy another but a one piece unit is in the back of my mind.

here's the Fenzy. Imagine a slightly bigger bottle you could attached a reg to or.. route to the BC using an AIR2.

Flame on!

 

[PonyPak]

[FONT=&amp]To those who responded to the initial query by flyin01… I apologize for my delayed response. Every waking moment has been on the tasks, needed to deliver retail product within the coming months. I will address the first few comments, here… those that followed were pretty much “Ditto”. [/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]FYI – at the time of the original flyin01’s post, I don’t believe our new “temp” website was up. Please refer to it, when look considering my comments. [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]But first….[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]We had a hugely positive response for our November launch at DEMA. We had over 300 lengthy conversations at our booth, with dealers, distributors, instructors, public safety dive team leaders, as well as inland commercial dive companies, looking for a superior solution for ship / harbor inspections, and diving in confined spaces where there is a high risk of entanglement.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]The latter interest is for PonyPak’s Redundant system (includes 4 port gas block), and for the upgrade to PonyPak’s Umbilical system. This delivers (for two divers) , high pressure breath gas, audio and video communications, 5k lbs. safety tether and two 12vdc circuits for heated undergarments (or other accessories) down a 300’ ½” umbilical line…[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]The “Redundant” system allows two full face mask divers to “buddy breathe” with no one removing their mask! An industry first![/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]We just came back from exhibiting at Underwater Interventions in New Orleans. That show is all commercial, military and public safety.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]There we had our third meeting with US military representatives. This follows our lengthy presentations last November, in Washington, DC with both the US Navy and USCG. We are returning at their invitation - for additional military presentations, following Beneath the Sea, in April.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]I understand, little of that has anything to do with the comments posted here about our "Sport" version[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]…except maybe…. the irony.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]It is precisely the feature that Jim Lapenta and awap (and others)…termed as “stupid” and “absurd” that has caused the enthusiastic ruckus - within the full-time professional diving community.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]If Jim and awap's comments are true, then PonyPak is gaining a lot of “absurd” military, commercial and professional diving company, with credentials that probably far exceed those who posted here…including me.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]Over seven years of development, I have entertained a lot of reasonable “opinions,” from people who never had an opportunity to try it. The gratifying part, is the unanimity of the “nay’s” to “yea’s” when the returned from their first dive. Their understandable preconceptions, evaporate with one realization….. in the water it disappears from their awareness. Why? It is located at the diver’s perfect center of gravity, in any position – even upside down![/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]Drag? No…. diver’s relaxedly folded their arms (as many do) on it ....as a reassuring “rest.”[/FONT] The arms create the (normal) resistance... not PonyPak.

[FONT=&amp]My goal with PonyPak is simple: to encourage all divers to dive redundant. [/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]If you already dive redundant – you don’t need PonyPak – unless you want the benefit of the hose clipping system. It works great with thick gloves.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Yes… PonyPak will mount side-slung…. and tank mount! We have a daughter bracket for that.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]If you decide 30-40 cft, side mount is not enough for you…. No problem. The “Sport” version has different sized bands, that will allow you to side-mount tanks up to 120 cft! [/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]I don’t want any 'PonyPak'd" diver to be “laughed off the boat” … [/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]But for the other 98% of sport divers, who reject redundancy (because side/tank mounting “is not fun”)….the front mounted solution is the answer to their wishes….assuming one of them is the added safety of redundancy.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]In answer to “dumpster diver” … no, you don’t lose your teeth (or some of us, our dentures) when jumping. The tank is held by four (4) uniquely designed, internationally patented, quick release clips.[/FONT] PonyPak remains stationary in any position, including upside down. (See Video #1, comments below)

[FONT=&amp]Clipping on and off is done in seconds. If you deploy it to another diver – don’t clip it to him. Just hand it over…..after he has the 2nd stage in his mouth and calmly knows he has plenty of air for a normal ascent – with safety stop.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]The “forward” clips are easily (and securely) adjustable to fit any diver size/shape. [/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]Yes there are videos. These are not professional. They literally are quick edits of the raw videos we shot of early tests of each system – to see if it work as I imagined. Whew! It did![/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]Video #1 is the oldest (earliest versions). Towards the end, you will see the “hand off” I just described. Video #2 is an equipment ditch (in case of entanglement) from 50’ followed by a look at how it is not in the way of common U/W work or play.

To be shown in future videos: the front mount is instantly convertible to side mount (and back again) – in the water – for those who insist on the tactile enjoyment of their belly against…… whatever…[/FONT]:)

[FONT=&amp]Video #3 is for the FFM diver – a complete equipment ditch from inside the engine room of a ship wreck, at 80’, Videos #4 -#6 are the first test dives of the umbilical system, to 120’ and for wreck penetration… [/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]All BC’s have hoses in their normal location…PonyPak offers no interference.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]
For Ams511 (and many of the others who followed suit) --- I hope the above addresses your questions. [/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]So too, for Dr. Lecter. PonyPak is the harness system for the pony bottle only. It attaches to any BC, including those without the required D-rings in the pectoral area. We provide (again, the world’s first) – “insert-able” D-ring. You do not need to disassemble your harness to add a D-ring. Internationally patented, it inserts anywhere on a web or strap – yet holds the same as a traditional D.[/FONT] You do not need to rely on your plastic "D's."
[FONT=&amp]
PonyPak is not the Zeagle “Rapid Diver”. The RD 20cft is the main tank (for the diver and his BC). The RD’s concept is to “rapidly” put a diver into an unknown emergency situation, with 75% less air, with no redundancy, not even an octo. I still can’t figure out the “benefit” of any of that. And nobody at Zeagle has ever tried to explain it to me. Maybe it is “inexplicable.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]
RD is a two point attachment (that swings and could “knock out your teeth”). PonyPak is a 4 point attachment. Your teeth are safe.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]PonyPak replaces none of your gear, is your redundancy, is not your main source, and is easily deployed to another diver. And you can instantly rotated to side mount (and back) in the water.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]PonyPak is also 1/3rd the cost.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]To everyone…. thank you for your comments. I welcome every opportunity to address questions and comments (including mis-perceptions).

Please join us at Our World Underwater, February 27 - March 1st in Chicago. I will be giving three seminars at OWU. One on the DUI Public Safety Seminar stage, plus another on PonyPak’s Umbilical system, and a third on "What are the risks, really" (a statistical argument for full redundancy for all divers)[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]You are welcome to contact me directly at any time…at WilliamMessner@PonyPak.com

Thank you.[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]The only “buddy” who will never leave your side….. is YOU! Give your "buddy" the equipment he needs ... to save your life![/FONT]

 

[Festus]

I'm just going to say NO.

 

[PonyPak]

I welcome your opinion. Thank you.

[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]The only “buddy” who will never leave your side….. is YOU! Give your "buddy" the equipment he needs ... to save your life![/FONT]

 

[Dr. Lecter]

lol at the idea I (or any other diver with half a brain) am using "plastic Ds" on my harness.

I'm happy to let the market deal with this knick-nacky POS - if specific aspects of it have applications in military/commercial diving, awesome for you. But, as a redundancy mounting system, it has no discernible advantages over this:



And the selection of suicide clips for the attachment points (see here http://www.ponypak.com/ponypak_final_v2_010.htm) -- on a piece of gear advertised for use inside overheads (presumably such as wrecks and caves) -- is borderline criminal. Do you have any experience with overhead diving?

 

[kelemvor]

Can you mount a spare air in a ponypak?

 

[Patoux01]

You can still cut it away Dr. Lecter, so I don't see the issue with that.

That being said: it plain sucks for wreck as you're making the profile MASSIVE, and now you're taking a fairly big risk to damage your gear if you go through something a tiny bit smaller than expected.
Why on earth would one want this when you can simply mount a small pony tank on your main tank using already existing bands? Or simply switch over to a twinset?
Finally, divers have been fighting since forever to get a clear chest, and you expect them to add a tank there? lol...


If there's a market for this thing, I'll eat my regs.

 

[PonyPak]

First, you are on an the old website - which should not exist anymore. I need to contact my ISP to find out why.

Current is www.PonyPak.com

I appreciate your opinion. How you choose to dive redundant is entirely you choice.

My concern is for the other 98% who don't, because they feel your preference is far too uncomfortable.

What I do know (after seven years of development and diver input), some people miss the advantages, until the day the actually dive with it.

Maybe some day you will, if for no reason that curiosity.

Your "suicide clips" comment is a puzzlement. The upper clips are "butterfly" slide bolts, that require no thumb action at all to clip on - just press on the D, and they open automatically.

And they are vastly easier to open/release, (with the large thumb pad) than the slide bolts you show on your photo.

I think you may be misinterpreting the photo as something they are not.

Please advise on how you perceive the photo, so I can help clarify your perception.

Thank you for your comments.


[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
Home
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]The only “buddy” who will never leave your side….. is YOU! Give your "buddy" the equipment he needs ... to save your life![/FONT]

---------- Post added February 21st, 2015 at 01:29 AM ----------

You cannot for one reason only. Spare Air is too small.

I am thankful that Spare Air exits, because it keeps the subject of redundancy alive.

The recognized problem with Spare Air is air capacity. A panic'd diver at 60' has 4 breaths. It can help you get to you buddy if you can find him. If he is 20' away, in 15' viz, you have a problem.

It is insufficient capacity to accomplish the standards I set for PonyPak: The redundant air must deliver you to the surface with the same margin of safety as your main source - including safety stop.

Take look at Video #2. That cannot be accomplished with Spare Air.

The global statistics on diver fatalities, show that in half the out-of-air fatalities - the diver died at the surface, from an air embolism, due do an uncontrolled ascent, by a diver in a state of panic.

Spare Air, does not allow normal ascent rates with safety stops. PonyPak does.

The minimum PonyPak size is 13cft. The standard size is 19 cft.

And when you eliminate the cost of an Octo (as solo certified divers are trained to eliminate) PonyPak costs no more than Spare Air. The cost of VIP and Hydro are the same too (for 1/4 the air capacity) Spare Air is a single stage regulator. PonyPak is a two stage regulator, that breath identically to your main system.

I applaud your move in the right direction: redundancy. I encourage you to go "all the way" with PonyPak.

Thank you for your question.

[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]www.PonyPak.com
[FONT=&amp]The only “buddy” who will never leave your side….. is YOU! Give your "buddy" the equipment he needs ... to save your life![/FONT]

---------- Post added February 21st, 2015 at 02:03 AM ----------

Hi Patioux01

Thank you for your comments. The mis-perceptions are understandable, absent actually diving with it.

Take 2 minutes to see video #1... Half way through, you will see me (with full face mask tied into PonyPak) swim into a tube, only 36" in diameter. I barely fit.

A short time later, I come out the other end - having done a complete equipment ditch - inside the 36" tube.

That scenario is impossible, with a tank mounted pony and nearly impossible with side mounted. It is 100% impossible, when diving with a full face mask - without PonyPak and its gas block.

Admittedly, the photos distort the perspective. In fact, the "area" is no more larger, than if you folded your arms naturally across your chest.

What "penetration divers" learn, unexpectedly, his how far more simple it is with PonyPak to adjust its position to "squeeze" into unlikely places.

Tank mounted Pony's can be the source of the entanglement, for obvious reasons. It is for that reason (and one other) commercial divers in confined spaces are serious about PonyPak. 1) It is a piece of cake to adjust with your hands and 2) in an emergency it is exactly were you want it. Afterall, that is the purpose - to be instantly available in an emergency, and not the cause of the emergency, because it is the source of the unintentional entanglement.

Take a few minutes at look at video #6. This deep wreck penetration dive is not only with PonyPak, but also with the umbilical surface supply system.

You can see the ease (and safety) with which he moves (and communicates) with the surface... It's easy, and a lot of fun.

Understanding that the "clear chest" is really a non-issue, only comes with diving the unit. Public Safety Divers will affirm that.

It is important to understand the reason for PonyPak: to give all sport divers an alternative to what 98% have already rejected - a slung or tank mounted pony.

And if people still want that (side/tank)....they can have have that too. PonyPak will mount any way, the diver wants - including ways that no other system can.

And you can easily switch from front to side (and back) in the water - in seconds - depending upon your diving needs at the moment.

When the day comes...... ....please let me know how you "like" your regulators. "Over easy" or "sunny side up?"...

Again, thank you for your comments. I appreciate your curiosity.

Regards,

[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
Home
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]The only “buddy” who will never leave your side….. is YOU! Give your "buddy" the equipment he needs ... to save your life![/FONT]

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

"PonyPak is not the Zeagle “Rapid Diver”. The RD 20cft is the main tank (for the diver and his BC). The RD’s concept is to “rapidly” put a diver into an unknownemergency situation, with 75% less air, with no redundancy, not even an octo. I still can’t figure out the “benefit” of any of that. And nobody at Zeagle has ever tried to explain it to me. Maybe it is “inexplicable.”
RD is a two point attachment (that swings and could “knock out your teeth”). PonyPak is a 4 point attachment. Your teeth are safe."

Pony Pak, as far as the Rapid Diver goes, you are talking out of turn. I developed what is believed to be the first training syllabus for the Rapid Diver in the country. I have qualified about 60 fire fighters and police officers on this system. I am happy to say that there have been at least 20 times St Tammany Parish Fire Protection District #1 or myself (8 dives for me) have used the Rapid Diver and with body recoveries for both them and myself. BTW, there has not been one incident with any of us. There is a solid reasoning for the Rapid application in Public Safety and FEMA has made it a PPE now. It keeps first responders safe by providing a breathing medium (in a hostile environment) when they might otherwise just jump in and hold their breath. Secondly we are in the water very fast and when family is around that means a lot. It also lets the family know that if something could have been done it would have. It does not replace a dive team but it provides a fast response when it may be possble to make a rescue. It also makes sure our first responders get to go home.

The razor valve (all in one) is a poor design on any brand including yours. I have a regular DIN valve and regulator. This contraption you have is an accident waiting to happen as it seems like a good idea but in reality 13 cuft is not really much more safe than a spare air. Running out of air is a sign of a poor diver. Managing your air and maintaining your equipment is much smarter. A 30 or 40 is much better to keep in reserve for a realistic problem like a rescue or unforseen event that causes you to have to use more gas in the open water.

To suggest it can be used safely in an overhead........NUTZ!

I am also an inland commercial diver and that rig will never be allowed. Inland divers wear helmets and our bailout needs to keep us alive. If I sound harsh, it s because you tried to hammer a rig that has a place, and is being used successfully and that you obviously know nothing about, so you can sell your carpets and snake oil. The Rapid is something I believe in and strongly.....but for rescue and fast recovery in certain environments and limited depths. It has a lot of limits. But, it is one heck of a tool for first responders. Been one for almost 24 years. I can speak from experience and a lot of it. Rapid can be used in open water and can hold a 50 or 63 or 80 cuft but you won't be trimmed properly and you are then forcing it to be used for something it wasn't originally intended to be used for.

The Rapid won't swing and hit your teeth either. You are talking about something you have no experience about and that ruins your credibility. A redundant air source is always a good thing to have. Ponies and stages are already doing a fine job. I wasn't going to say anything because it wasn't something I would use. But when you unashamedly bashed a tool that you don't know anything about and that I have watched being used as originally intended.....that needed addressing.

And the overhead thing.....better have a good lawyer and lots of insurance. I smell profit and greed as a driving force much more than actual diving experience and maturity as a diver. Oh,and the tiny pony gauges.......they fail regularly and us older guys can't see them very well. Again another problem that has not been thought out very well. Don't forget...........You (or the OP) asked. Mark Michaud

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Your "suicide clips" comment is a puzzlement. The upper clips are "butterfly" slide bolts, that require no thumb action at all to clip on - just press on the D, and they open automatically.

And they are vastly easier to open/release, (with the large thumb pad) than the slide bolts you show on your photo.

I think you may be misinterpreting the photo as something they are not.

And I think you just shot any credibility you might have had for designing gear intended for use in overhead environments straight to Hell. Please, tell us all more about how your device employs clips that open any time sufficient pressure is applied to their face, and how that's appropriate for use in a cave or wreck.

As to your other non-point, the idea that a slung or side mounted bottle is somehow "uncomfortable" is about as valid as the idea that a BP/W is super hard on the shoulders and divers would be better off in a nice cushy poodle jacket.