Negative entry vs Using a downline
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OP
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First, the ship sits on 135 to the sand, and the top of the wheel house with the biggest nudibranch assortment is at about 95 or 100 feet
Second....I never said there was anything magical about the way DIR divers use scooters....Throughout the 80's when I was heavy into spearfishing, there were plenty of very good spearfishing divers that would use big scooters to cover more ground for bugs, and for running back and forth between the crown in the inshore ledge. This was long before DIR....DIR probably borrowed from guys like this, as they used homemade crotch type belts that were cobbled to their BC's....Though some used the saddle kind that you get pushed by....
In any event, prior to you twisting this, it was about how DIR makes it very easy to use a scooter...or not to use one, but the main thing is how simple it is to use one if you want.
But this is just one small part of exploration type diving....maybe what you are really saying is that the idea of exploration diving sickens you...and this makes DIR an abomination to you ????
Dr. Lecter
Contributor
Small correction for you there, Dan. Carry on.
DaleC
Contributor
Ok, I'm not so strongly opposed to mixed kit diving to strongly debate the point. Personally, I feel it's better to not present to many ideas right off the hop but YMMV. It does beg the question though whether, according to your description, standardization, muscle memory or law of primacy plays any part at all in rec diving. We can't have it both ways, arguing standardization is important and then saying variety poses no problem (not saying you specifically argued the point).
you mentioned one reason that I actually prefer the longhose set up; the ease of doing donation drills/checks. A pet peeve of mine is how triangle rigged divers with poor reg holders are reluctant to do a predive donation because it is difficult to restow the octo. FAIL. Many o time, I have untangled octos that divers would have otherwise splashed with because of that issue. It's another reason I prefer to be a self reliant diver and not depend on my insta team for anything I might actually need. I'd rather just sling a pony and know where it is and whether it works.
My goodness, I wonder where all the "chest-thumping" DIR divers are? I've been involved in that particular niche of diving for almost 9 years now, and I haven't found any except a very occasional one on line. I haven't dived with AJ but I've gone drinking with him . . . he's funny, and not at all arrogant, although some of the diving he has done would actually merit a little braggadocio.
I believe the statements that have been made are not that nobody but us can dive scooters. It's that one particular poster appears to be making statements about scooters that he doesn't have the experience to make (and in fact, they aren't making a lot of sense).
And as far as minimalism goes . . . the system is very simple. You utilize the simplest system that is compatible with scaling to virtually any kind of dive you might want to do. It's not the simplest configuration you could possibly put together, true; you could do most recreational dives with one first and one second stage and a lot of them with no flotation bladder at all. But it's pretty well accepted that everybody dives with the ability to donate gas, and some kind of buoyancy compensation. We donate gas from a long hose, and use a backplate and wing. If you look at a Hog-rigged diver, you'll see tidy -- no big loops of hose, no danglies. To this basic, single tank, long hose system, we can add doubles, stages, deco bottles or scooters -- whatever the dive requires.
You can easily poke holes in things, if you don't look at the system as the holistic thing that it is. No, it isn't minimal in an absolute sense. No, it isn't standardized to a ridiculous degree -- what difference does it make to the team whether you dive wet or dry, as long as you are warm enough to complete the dive safely, and you are diving a balanced rig? We standardize our basic equipment setup, the gases we use, the procedures and protocols we use, our signals, and our decompression. The more demanding or dangerous the dive, the more intensely the team is alike.
I think it's funny that people accuse us of being monolithic and inflexible and unnecessarily complicated, and then poke holes in the system when it becomes clear that those things aren't true. It's a pragmatic, useful, and flexible system that permits people who don't even speak the same language to dive seamlessly together. We like it. You don't have to.
I believe the statements that have been made are not that nobody but us can dive scooters. It's that one particular poster appears to be making statements about scooters that he doesn't have the experience to make (and in fact, they aren't making a lot of sense).
And as far as minimalism goes . . . the system is very simple. You utilize the simplest system that is compatible with scaling to virtually any kind of dive you might want to do. It's not the simplest configuration you could possibly put together, true; you could do most recreational dives with one first and one second stage and a lot of them with no flotation bladder at all. But it's pretty well accepted that everybody dives with the ability to donate gas, and some kind of buoyancy compensation. We donate gas from a long hose, and use a backplate and wing. If you look at a Hog-rigged diver, you'll see tidy -- no big loops of hose, no danglies. To this basic, single tank, long hose system, we can add doubles, stages, deco bottles or scooters -- whatever the dive requires.
You can easily poke holes in things, if you don't look at the system as the holistic thing that it is. No, it isn't minimal in an absolute sense. No, it isn't standardized to a ridiculous degree -- what difference does it make to the team whether you dive wet or dry, as long as you are warm enough to complete the dive safely, and you are diving a balanced rig? We standardize our basic equipment setup, the gases we use, the procedures and protocols we use, our signals, and our decompression. The more demanding or dangerous the dive, the more intensely the team is alike.
I think it's funny that people accuse us of being monolithic and inflexible and unnecessarily complicated, and then poke holes in the system when it becomes clear that those things aren't true. It's a pragmatic, useful, and flexible system that permits people who don't even speak the same language to dive seamlessly together. We like it. You don't have to.
I "used" a reel before I used a spool. After losing 2 Carter's I went to a spool and the 1 meter halcyon closed marker. In many cases, particularly in Jupiter, I believed the smaller markers inadequate. I worked at it and can now shoot the big Halcyons. My main buddies use spools and shoot markers from midwater. But mine is bigger.mea culpa Split lip
Of course you may use a reel. As Bob said, we just rarely see that here. I usually have seen people shoot from <100.
AfterDark
Contributor
Shows a long attention span if nothing else!
OP
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Regarding the negative entry ....Whether Florida or Asia or NJ or UK.... Ocean sites :
For low or no current, the line is not required by the negative entry style I like, because the captain marks the wreck below with the fathometer ( and is at the gps location), and when he has determined that there is no drift, or that he is in the right place to have a diver on top of the wreck, he drops us....even in 5 foot vis, this will work on wrecks as deep as 100 feet easily....on 220 foot deep and deeper, it is only going to work if there is no current or low current, or if the ship is very large...This thread is NOT about tech drops though, so this is irrelevant.
For high current, a diver is not strong enough to pull down the line without extreme difficulty--and when it is really fast, a diver is incapable of pulling down the line--this is an issue that will not change between Florida, UK, Asia, or anywhere else. If anything, a warm water destination can run slightly faster for the line, as thin and slick wetsuits will not be grabbed as much by the current, so divers here can tolerate a little more as they work their way down or up. Fort Lauderdale florida, say 30 miles from WPB sites, is an area where they typically run an anchor and use ascent descent lines for wrecks. This is a place I have experienced first hand, that many divers can not pull down a line on days when the current is ripping "for Lauderdale"...the thing is, Lauderdale on a high current day--is a very mild current or medium at worst, by Palm Beach norms.... When divers can't handle the current on the line ( a DM will try first if the current seems close to the limit of diver ability--the captain will have a good sense of this to, from how the boat is on the anchor) .. These same wrecks are easy for Palm Beach operators to drop on regardless of current, and some of the captains in Lauderdale have Palm Beach drift experience, and they change to drift mode when conditions and diver requests dictate. The issue here, is that the captains BEST at delivering perfect drift drops, do this in Palm beach every day.....The captains in Lauderdale that get a job in Palm Beach, usually take some weeks of training before they get the skill of estimating the drops perfected.
If there are top, middle and bottom current variations, most of the Palm Beach Captains will have trouble with this on bad vis days and 80ft or deeper....( which usually is a deeper dive phenomenon anyway)
So we used Lauderdale for many deep wrecks in the 90's, and this was a place where on some days vis could be 10 feet to 20, even though it can run to 60 or 100.....and on the low vis days, the norm was lines to hit the wrecks. But we found some Captains skilled in Palm Beach Style drops, and our team would hit these wrecks with far more gas than the other divers that would go to the same wreck and fight hard all the way down to a 200 to 280 foot deep wreck...often these poor guys were being spun around like a fishing lure on the descent line , and there arms were filling with lactic acid, there breathing at close to an Aerobic pace on a bike.....We would be down 5 to 10 minutes before them, and reach the wreck at a heart rate of around 65 or below for some of us. Clearly this is an exageration of the issues on a 120 foot deep wreck, but everyone has this in common--we all want as much extra reserve gas for our chosen dive as possible, we want the longest time on the wreck itself as we can have( no wasted time if possible), and we don't want to chance getting a major muscle workout on ascent, as this has major DCS ramifications, as offgassing is poor with heavily contracted muscles and cramping--which happens to the line using divers on the higher current days where they can still manage to go up and down on a line. Again, the drift drop eliminates the DCS issue from drastically reduced offgassing potential from fatigued muscles.
Where there are a series of structures that could interfere with a hot drop....Not because of the drop itself, but with the idea of towing a float the whole time......the alternative in "some cases" could be dropping without the float deployed, staying on the primary structure as long as desired, and on leaving the structure, deploying the inflatable torpedo float from depth....once beyond the structure...and then continuing the dive.
If the current was so strong that there is a fear the divers could not descend into the drop point, it would be my contention it is too strong to pull down on a line.
I can easily demonstrate a line technique on one of our Jupiter Wrecks, versus a hot drop...on a day with a good current, the big red ball floats are immediately sunk by current....and even when it is not strong enough to sink them, the current is going to turn the diver into a fishing lure, spinning around almost helplessly, and making themself a DCS wannabe We used to do this stuff--with lines, and got tired of the issues....this was in the 80's....Frank was the one that solved this, the other boats did lines....After a few years in the early 80's, the ONLY boat I wanted to dive from was on Franks, due to the ease of his drift drop technique....and by the mid-80's, pretty much all the Palm Beach boats used hot drops for wrecks unless a group requested a line.
Boynton would get away with using lines on some of it's wrecks, for divers that preferred this, as the current is much more mild in Boynton Beach...it was a place you could do either--though we always found drift dropping the easier way by far....But the boats would let a group use whichever method they want--unless the current was ripping--meaning it would be pointless to do a line descent--so the choice then would either be a hot drop, or abort that site, and find a long reef where a slow descent without line, or with the line on a big red ball could happen.
- are water --water is the same everywhere
- either Low or No current
- Or medium to high current
- have just one dominant current
- Have a top current, a mid depth current in a different direction, and a bottom current.
- Have either a bare desert like floor of sand, and one Wreck --like an Oasis in the desert
- Or there is a large reef area to be hit anyway you like
- Or there are specific structures that require some precision in descent to reach.
For low or no current, the line is not required by the negative entry style I like, because the captain marks the wreck below with the fathometer ( and is at the gps location), and when he has determined that there is no drift, or that he is in the right place to have a diver on top of the wreck, he drops us....even in 5 foot vis, this will work on wrecks as deep as 100 feet easily....on 220 foot deep and deeper, it is only going to work if there is no current or low current, or if the ship is very large...This thread is NOT about tech drops though, so this is irrelevant.
For high current, a diver is not strong enough to pull down the line without extreme difficulty--and when it is really fast, a diver is incapable of pulling down the line--this is an issue that will not change between Florida, UK, Asia, or anywhere else. If anything, a warm water destination can run slightly faster for the line, as thin and slick wetsuits will not be grabbed as much by the current, so divers here can tolerate a little more as they work their way down or up. Fort Lauderdale florida, say 30 miles from WPB sites, is an area where they typically run an anchor and use ascent descent lines for wrecks. This is a place I have experienced first hand, that many divers can not pull down a line on days when the current is ripping "for Lauderdale"...the thing is, Lauderdale on a high current day--is a very mild current or medium at worst, by Palm Beach norms.... When divers can't handle the current on the line ( a DM will try first if the current seems close to the limit of diver ability--the captain will have a good sense of this to, from how the boat is on the anchor) .. These same wrecks are easy for Palm Beach operators to drop on regardless of current, and some of the captains in Lauderdale have Palm Beach drift experience, and they change to drift mode when conditions and diver requests dictate. The issue here, is that the captains BEST at delivering perfect drift drops, do this in Palm beach every day.....The captains in Lauderdale that get a job in Palm Beach, usually take some weeks of training before they get the skill of estimating the drops perfected.
If there are top, middle and bottom current variations, most of the Palm Beach Captains will have trouble with this on bad vis days and 80ft or deeper....( which usually is a deeper dive phenomenon anyway)
So we used Lauderdale for many deep wrecks in the 90's, and this was a place where on some days vis could be 10 feet to 20, even though it can run to 60 or 100.....and on the low vis days, the norm was lines to hit the wrecks. But we found some Captains skilled in Palm Beach Style drops, and our team would hit these wrecks with far more gas than the other divers that would go to the same wreck and fight hard all the way down to a 200 to 280 foot deep wreck...often these poor guys were being spun around like a fishing lure on the descent line , and there arms were filling with lactic acid, there breathing at close to an Aerobic pace on a bike.....We would be down 5 to 10 minutes before them, and reach the wreck at a heart rate of around 65 or below for some of us. Clearly this is an exageration of the issues on a 120 foot deep wreck, but everyone has this in common--we all want as much extra reserve gas for our chosen dive as possible, we want the longest time on the wreck itself as we can have( no wasted time if possible), and we don't want to chance getting a major muscle workout on ascent, as this has major DCS ramifications, as offgassing is poor with heavily contracted muscles and cramping--which happens to the line using divers on the higher current days where they can still manage to go up and down on a line. Again, the drift drop eliminates the DCS issue from drastically reduced offgassing potential from fatigued muscles.
Where there are a series of structures that could interfere with a hot drop....Not because of the drop itself, but with the idea of towing a float the whole time......the alternative in "some cases" could be dropping without the float deployed, staying on the primary structure as long as desired, and on leaving the structure, deploying the inflatable torpedo float from depth....once beyond the structure...and then continuing the dive.
If the current was so strong that there is a fear the divers could not descend into the drop point, it would be my contention it is too strong to pull down on a line.
I can easily demonstrate a line technique on one of our Jupiter Wrecks, versus a hot drop...on a day with a good current, the big red ball floats are immediately sunk by current....and even when it is not strong enough to sink them, the current is going to turn the diver into a fishing lure, spinning around almost helplessly, and making themself a DCS wannabe
We used to do this stuff--with lines, and got tired of the issues....this was in the 80's....Frank was the one that solved this, the other boats did lines....After a few years in the early 80's, the ONLY boat I wanted to dive from was on Franks, due to the ease of his drift drop technique....and by the mid-80's, pretty much all the Palm Beach boats used hot drops for wrecks unless a group requested a line.Boynton would get away with using lines on some of it's wrecks, for divers that preferred this, as the current is much more mild in Boynton Beach...it was a place you could do either--though we always found drift dropping the easier way by far....But the boats would let a group use whichever method they want--unless the current was ripping--meaning it would be pointless to do a line descent--so the choice then would either be a hot drop, or abort that site, and find a long reef where a slow descent without line, or with the line on a big red ball could happen.
Last edited:
jadairiii
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To go back on point, a hot drop is an advanced skill, for both captain and diver, regardless of your style of equipment. Boat captain better be spot on or you will miss the wrecks 100% of the time. Lot of S Florida boats I would never hot drop with due to their captains inability to read the currents. Regardless of how good of diving skills you have, you will never hit the wreck with a bad captain. On the other hand if you (and your buddies if applicable) are not squared away (buoyancy, clearing ears, etc) don’t hot drop, you will also miss the wrecks.
Perfect example, of a good capt and team, is that a group of us “hot dropped” with scooters in a pretty good current, we rolled, the captain handed all 6 of us our scooters after the rolls and we dropped without using the scooters (as was planned for this dive) and fell right on the wreck. Very few captains are that good to gauge the time/current/drift and time on surface to hand the gear.
Second, would I dive with other non-DIR divers? Sure, I do it all the time within recreational limits (never tech). Before the dive (like every dive) I go through my GUE-EDGE (I don’t tell them that) and go over with my new “buddy” the dive plan, minimum gas, I check their gear and explain mine, ask them what they want to do, if they want to lead and then have fun. I have never had a new “buddy” not compliment me on the fact that I spent a couple of minutes pre-planning the dive. They appreciate it.
DIR Gear, to reiterate what I have written and what AJ (and others have said), what I bring on a dive depends on the dive. Other than the reg/back-plate/wing/tank/mask/fins the only other piece of gear I always bring is a back up light (scout, rat, etc light). I like looking under stuff. For a beach dive in shallow water, that is it other than flag/float required by FL law. Rest is added for the situation.
Scooters, here is a picture suitable for framing, of me diving the other day, note that my right hand is dropped (or I can rest it on the shroud) and my left hand/arm (bent at elbow) is on the trigger, all the pull is from the leash/crotch strap. One of our “standard” dives during lobster season is to have the captain drop us on the outside of a reef line that runs N-S in 125’ water, we then work our way all the way into the 2nd reef line in about 25’ of water. Usually about 100 min dive and a bag full of lobsters.
Perfect example, of a good capt and team, is that a group of us “hot dropped” with scooters in a pretty good current, we rolled, the captain handed all 6 of us our scooters after the rolls and we dropped without using the scooters (as was planned for this dive) and fell right on the wreck. Very few captains are that good to gauge the time/current/drift and time on surface to hand the gear.
Second, would I dive with other non-DIR divers? Sure, I do it all the time within recreational limits (never tech). Before the dive (like every dive) I go through my GUE-EDGE (I don’t tell them that) and go over with my new “buddy” the dive plan, minimum gas, I check their gear and explain mine, ask them what they want to do, if they want to lead and then have fun. I have never had a new “buddy” not compliment me on the fact that I spent a couple of minutes pre-planning the dive. They appreciate it.
DIR Gear, to reiterate what I have written and what AJ (and others have said), what I bring on a dive depends on the dive. Other than the reg/back-plate/wing/tank/mask/fins the only other piece of gear I always bring is a back up light (scout, rat, etc light). I like looking under stuff. For a beach dive in shallow water, that is it other than flag/float required by FL law. Rest is added for the situation.
Scooters, here is a picture suitable for framing, of me diving the other day, note that my right hand is dropped (or I can rest it on the shroud) and my left hand/arm (bent at elbow) is on the trigger, all the pull is from the leash/crotch strap. One of our “standard” dives during lobster season is to have the captain drop us on the outside of a reef line that runs N-S in 125’ water, we then work our way all the way into the 2nd reef line in about 25’ of water. Usually about 100 min dive and a bag full of lobsters.
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