Negative entry vs Using a downline

[T.C.]

UM - so AJ said to get some experience - DIVING A DPV - RLY? That is quite an olympic-sized long jump!

Uh. No.

You're the one making the jump. He clearly stated get some experience. He did not, and has not at any point, qualified this by adding "with a DPV". You are the one reading into this and making a jump. I'm reading his exact words.

BTW - I don't have a bubble to burst... I am just trying to figure out what your point is and what kinda chops ya got to back it up. Generally speaking, if SOMEONE hasn't been there, done that, I don't value their opinion on a topic much.

And just what do you know of me? Or I of you?

You're opinion, as the first post on this thread, is pointless. Second; I don't have to quantify or qualify myself to you. My point is whatever I want to make it- in this case the overblown superiority complex of most DIR divers, who, in my opinion, are not the perfect diver than their chest-thumping bravado leads them to believe about themselves.

As I said before, a key feature of the truly elite in this world is the little attention they call to themselves, and the lack of scorn for those who are not as capable.

Contrast this to the "we're the greatest divers ever" attitude of DIR, and the example of PfcAJ who declares me in need of experience because I'm not DIR.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I think this all began when J said being configured dir meant something special when a new diver started scootering.

If the point being made was that starting with a BP&W will simplify your transition to scootering, slinging bottles, or scootering with a bunch of slung and leashed bottles, I think that's indisputably true and a point in favor of starting with a BP&W.

Certain other elements of DIR's equipment configuration philosophy might credibly factor into an assertion that DIR-->scooter is easier than non-DIR (or at least non-Hogarthian)-->scooter. The short LPI that's easy to reach without coming off the trigger, the relatively secure 2nd stages and hoses that are low(er) drag, the compass left/timer right approach.

But I think DIR's dogmatic attempt to cover all dives with one configuration -- and nothing extra -- breaks down at the edges and would actually make the transition to DPV harder. For example, compass on the left rather than the right makes sense, until you realize that holding your left arm in front of you to navigate is a terrible way to scooter. Then you put your primary nav instruments on the DPV itself; maybe you still have a redundant compass on the left arm, maybe you stick it in a pocket, or maybe you decide you can always pull it from the DPV if you need to and ditch it from the arm entirely. Likewise, when you start driving around with a bunch of bottles you realize very quickly that DIR stage slinging is suboptimal and cuts into your range by adding significant drag. The solution is SM rigging if you're doing lots of scootering with either several deco/stage bottles or BO bottles, but DIR doesn't really accomodate that well. And the whole SPG on the left hip thing goes out the window when you're having to look back at 150-300fpm while the gauge is under three tanks. You run it over or under your arm, maybe on an even shorter hose, so you can see it right under your nose.

I think we can all agree that you probably don't hand off a high power DPV and tell the new guy to gun it on dive 1.

No, but sometimes we do hand a high power DPV off to our BCD-wearing DM pal without remembering to take the throttle down off the 100% mark or tell him to do so before pulling the trigger We only make that mistake once, though.

 

[T.C.]

I don't care if you're wearing a BCD that's custom tailored to you and then Aquasealed to your wetsuit: you clip a Magnus or a Genesis to a D-ring on that BCD without a crotch strap and jam on the gas, and you'll have a lot of material around your chin in short order.

I guess it would depend on body type. If your body gets wider toward the shoulder/chest, the BCD should stop moving when it can't slide anymore. If you're built like a pear, you may lose your unit

Hell, even with a 7mm suit and a 2" soft webbing strap it's still un-fun enough that people are replacing crotch straps with custom split-seat harnesses to spread out the force your ass/crotch (not some other part of the harness) is anchoring.

Hmmm....sounds different from what another diver described. He called it, "pretty comfy to be towed by, even for hours on end."

Just from thinking about it, I'd rather have a split seat than be crotch strap.

---------- Post added April 10th, 2014 at 08:32 PM ----------

For some perspective, here is a video shot on a scooter on Juno Reef...one of the reefs you will probably want to visit when you are in Palm Beach on your upcoming trip.

Uh. No. Not interested.

The scooter alternative will allow you to do an exploration run, or tour of a large area

You have no idea how little attraction speeding around the reef at full speed holds for me.

Here's a hint. Less than zero.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Hmmm....sounds different from what another diver described. He called it, "pretty comfy to be towed by, even for hours on end."

Just from thinking about it, I'd rather have a split seat than be crotch strap.

How comfy it is depends on how fast you're going. With DPVs, doubling your speed will square your energy consumption, so you can have a tiny 34 pound scooter that generates 90+lbs of thrust and only run for 40 minutes covering about 2 miles...but that will go for over three hours and cover 5.6 miles at a much more comfortable thrust setting giving you a cruise speed of 150 fpm. The giant expedition scooters have an even bigger disparity: a Genesis 1500 will only run for 100 minutes at max throttle, covering a scant 5 miles, but slowed down to 150fpm it can go for almost nine hours and cover 14 miles, which is a respectable CCR scooter dive by almost anyone's standards

Even on a cruise setting like that, though, you're putting somewhere around 30-40lbs of constant pull on a single D-ring for hours...without a crotch strap, it's going to move the rig around on you. Lower thrust settings and shorter dives I can see being done OK by someone in a BCD, especially if stopping every so often to re-adjust isn't a problem. DIR or not, I think those of us who think of a 2 hour scooter dive as a short dip have a bias about what "works" and "doesn't work" based on what we need to do our dives. Others' mileage may vary.

 

[danvolker]

Uh. No. Not interested.


You have no idea how little attraction speeding around the reef at full speed holds for me.

Here's a hint. Less than zero.

TC, Why do you engage in this big drawn out argument with us on scooters then....We get macro....My wife does Macro a couple of times per week at the BHB.
Of course I can't see a scooter for this....Then again....What if you heard about some mind blowing Nudibranchs that were in 4 different spots on a 400 foot long ship, sitting at 135 feet deep. The scooter could get you to each spot, and allow enough time and gas reserve to get some amazing shots.
Getting to the end of a long cave is not the only reason for a scooter.

 

[PfcAJ]

To be clear, TC, you need some dpv experience before pontificating about DPVs. At least enough to know what kind of scooter you were using. Has nothing to do with dir. It has to do with knowing what you're talking about.

I find a normal strap comfy, but my longest scooter dive was only 3hrs on the trigger. Other folks might have different opinions on it's comfort. I find a lot of it has to do with body position.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I usually use my scooter to get me to dive sites that are too far from shore to be practical via swimming, but not far enough to warrant the expense of a charter ... if I could even find one that would take me where I want to go. One of my favorite sites to scooter to is a little island about a half-mile off from the beach that's got some spectacular macro opportunities. I'll clip off the camera till I get there, then clip off the scooter, deploy the camera, kick the reef till I'm done, then reverse the process and scooter back. Works out great.

My little Sierra's only got about an hour of burn time though, so I limit my distance to places it'll take me in 20 minutes or less.

On the other hand, just got back from 3 days on a liveaboard in British Columbia where four of our 12 divers brought scooters. They knew we'd be diving some spectacular walls that could be very current sensitive, and figured the scoots would come in handy. None of them ever got used ... there was just too much to see, and the scoots would have made them miss a lot of it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DaleC]

I was about to go reread a bunch of this thread to remember exactly what context the whole discussion revolved around (because I honestly can't remember) but decided I don't care (enough).

I would agree that having a hog set up simplifies the advancement towards tech like diving; it's why I have such a rig. I really like it because of the modularity it provides (singles/doubles/bottles) but I could do that same sort of stuff using other kits as well, though perhaps not all as easily.

But I don't over inflate it's significance or the value of "muscle memory" in the recreational setting. I can sling a bottle on my Hawaiian pack, trim out and achieve good buoyancy with no BC. Then I can swap over to my hog rigged doubles and do the same thing. Then I can swap over to my horsecollar and dive a doublehose. No issues. Same with noodling around with a scooter. Muscle memory, and a standardized rig, only becomes important the deeper into the risk pit you go - where the environmental and operational stressors may out compete the available bandwidth (to borrow a phrase).

So part of the selling point of the dir regime would be how often you (in the general sense, not specifically you Dr L) expect to be doing dives where the main tenets play an important role. If the answer is enough, then the system may be valuable. If the answer is rarely, then you are assuming a lot of excess baggage and artificial constructs that other divers doing your dives, don't. Ok, if that's your bag, but don't try to convince those same divers all these things really matter at their level. Because, we're doing the dives and know it's just not true.

 

[Splitlip]

A rec diver may have a finger spool, but not a handled reel. At tech diver may have both, or multiples thereof.

Even the most ardent diver would be hard pressed to justify carrying a large reel on a rec dive (unless one were training) though for many rec dives a finger spool can be very valuable.

Those are the kinds of comments that annoy some folks. How can you make such presumptuous statements? Did you hear that somewhere?
i am a rec diver. I shoot a 50# 6ft marker from rec depths (<120ft); as do many of the locals. A finger spool doesn't work as well. Especially a hundred footer.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Those are the kinds of comments that annoy some folks. How can you make such presumptuous statements? Did you hear that somewhere?
i am a rec diver. I shoot a 50# 6ft marker from rec depths (<120ft); as do many of the locals. A finger spool doesn't work as well. Especially a hundred footer.

I see your point, but it's all in technique and personal preference. Nothing particularly difficult about deploying a finger spool ... even a 100-footer, or larger if you've got one. Both spools and reels have downsides. Reels can be easier to take up as you're ascending, but you have to have some technique to avoid rats-nesting one on deployment. Finger spools won't have that problem, but they can be more of a pain to take up on the ascent.

Boils down to what works for you, based on conditions and gear. In dry gloves, I find the spool a better choice, as I don't think I could work a rats-nest out of a reel with those things on my hands. Dale dives conditions similar to mine, which is probably why he looks at it that way too ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)