Chasing paper? Or competence?

[ItsBruce]

However, the rest of your post was atrociously dangerous. What you're suggesting is that you want an instructor to teach you how to break the limits of your cert without the proper training to do so. Purposefully breaching NDLs in purely rec gear without any of the other requisite skills. Do you think that all of the fancy crap tech divers learn to do is for show? I'm really not trying to be a butthead about it, I'm honestly asking. Besides the non-silting techniques, everything else is about useful skills even on normal Rec dives or "Lite deco." As has been mentioned above, proper redundancy isn't just about YOUR gas, but the gas of your buddy. Gas planning is about knowing for sure where you'll be in terms of gas reserves if all goes well, and what to do if it doesn't. All of the additional stuff you'd learn in a Tec40 class is so you can do dives that put you into deco with the training and knowledge to do those dives safely. That's what the card says, that the instructor believes you can accomplish those dives.

I'm mostly in agreement. But, I take exception about gas planning as it relates to deco obligations. Consider the following dive plan:

A diver is diving air. The first dive is 60 fsw for 45 min followed by a SI of 60 min. The second dive is 50 fsw for 40 min followed by another SI of 60 min. The third dive is another 50 feet but for only 20 minutes.


Does anyone disagree about these being easy, conservative dives? Does anyone think there are worries about gas, especially on the third dive?


Guess what? The Navy tables say "Deco" on the third dive!

Deco may entail gas issues, but not always.

 

[nimoh]

I'm mostly in agreement. But, I take exception about gas planning as it relates to deco obligations. Consider the following dive plan:

A diver is diving air. The first dive is 60 fsw for 45 min followed by a SI of 60 min. The second dive is 50 fsw for 40 min followed by another SI of 60 min. The third dive is another 50 feet but for only 20 minutes.


Does anyone disagree about these being easy, conservative dives? Does anyone think there are worries about gas, especially on the third dive?


Guess what? The Navy tables say "Deco" on the third dive!

Deco may entail gas issues, but not always.

As someone pointed out earlier, the line for recreational diving has to be drawn somewhere, and it has been drawn to include dives above 130' that do not require decompression stops. Seems like a reasonable place to draw it to me.

Obviously a dive requiring a couple of minutes of deco with adequate gas supply is not overwhelming, doesn't really change the dive all that much except the optional safety stop is now required. However, at what point does the diver start to think why am I cutting my last dive short? I could dive for 30 minutes and do just a little bit more deco...or 40 mins.

I realize I am arguing a slippery slope, and it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. My point is just that if you want to do technical dives, why not become a technical diver?

 

[Jax]

This is become ludicrous.

These two threads (this and the one cited by the OP) are analogous to

"I don't want to learn about emergency actions, or etiquette, or rules of the road, I just want to learn to drive!"

Most people can follow the driving results of the above in their head. People who have been to SWA have witnessed it. It's :turd:, and people die.

 

[rivers]

The thing is, there are courses out there that teach deco within recreational ranges. PADI has their TEC 40 course, which apparently can be done in a single tank (but I don't agree with). BSAC teach deco starting at sports diver, which will qualify a diver to 35m (again, you can do it in a single tank but bad idea imho). A sport diver can also then take an accelerated deco course once they have amassed enough experience and achieved a certain buoyancy standard (qualifies a diver to use up to 80% o2) GUE have Rec 3, which qualifies a diver to 39m and up to 15 minutes of deco, plus the use of 21/35 and 30/30. But GUE requires Rec 3 be done while wearing a twinset.
If you are getting into deco, even in purely recreational ranges, I believe you should be using a twinset (either back or sidemount), purely for redundancy.

 

[Lorenzoid]

The thing is, there are courses out there that teach deco within recreational ranges. PADI has their TEC 40 course, which apparently can be done in a single tank (but I don't agree with). BSAC teach deco starting at sports diver, which will qualify a diver to 35m (again, you can do it in a single tank but bad idea imho). A sport diver can also then take an accelerated deco course once they have amassed enough experience and achieved a certain buoyancy standard (qualifies a diver to use up to 80% o2) GUE have Rec 3, which qualifies a diver to 39m and up to 15 minutes of deco, plus the use of 21/35 and 30/30. But GUE requires Rec 3 be done while wearing a twinset.
If you are getting into deco, even in purely recreational ranges, I believe you should be using a twinset (either back or sidemount), purely for redundancy.

Sounds like you haven't read the other thread that the OP referred to when he spun this one off from it: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...e-than-advanced-but-not-really-technical.html

 

[victorzamora]

Bruce, I didn't mean that you won't have ENOUGH gas. I meant that without the training you don't know enough to KNOW you have enough gas, even considering a worst-case scenario. Part of my beef is the lack of redundancy and absolute lack of emergency procedures at that level. I'm not saying you CAN'T hit deco, but I firmly believe you SHOULDN'T be hitting deco.

nimoh, you're right....the line DOES have to be drawn. That line is above 130ft with no deco and no overhead.

 

[DevonDiver]

PADI has their TEC 40 course, which apparently can be done in a single tank

With 'H' or'Y' valve, to ensure redundancy.... if you can find such a thing anywhere (unlikely outside the USA). This is the same as most decent cavern and wreck courses - and reflects similar dive parameters.

The vast majority of courses are done in back-mount. Sidemount is become more popular.

An appropriate capacity single, with appropriate pony is an option for those not desiring to progress to further technical training (Tec45+).

BSAC teach deco starting at sports diver, which will qualify a diver to 35m

No. Wrong.

Absolute max depth is 35m, only following several post-qualification sign-offs by a supervising instructor. No deco training is provided for Sports Divers.

BSAC '88 tables show decompression. That does not equate to divers being enabled to dive to the limits of those tables. In the same way that PADI tables show 40m/130ft - but does not in any way qualify newly certified Open Water divers to hit those limits...

 

[rivers]

No. Wrong.

Absolute max depth is 35m, only following several post-qualification sign-offs by a supervising instructor. No deco training is provided for Sports Divers.

I was on my phone earlier so elaborating wasn't the easiest of the things to do. But yes, once signed off, a sports diver can dive to 35m.

BSAC '88 tables show decompression. That does not equate to divers being enabled to dive to the limits of those tables. In the same way that PADI tables show 40m/130ft - but does not in any way qualify newly certified Open Water divers to hit those limits...

Decompression is covered in sports diver. It is basic, but it's covered. Sports divers are also able to conduct dives requiring deco. The open water bit of training even includes a simulated deco dive. I know of several sports divers participating in dives that require a small amount of deco. They have no training outside of BSAC, nor do they hold any technical qualification. Does every sports diver do decompression dives? No, of course not, but there are plenty who do.

From the BSAC
Qualification and what that means
A BSAC Sports is defined as a diver who is competent to:
• conduct dives to 20m (if you choose to do the post qualification progress dives, the depth is increased in 5m increments to 35m)
• conduct dives with a BSAC Ocean Diver within the restrictions of the conditions already encountered by the Ocean Diver
• conduct dives with another BSAC Sports Diver, within the restrictions of the conditions already encountered during training.
• Conduct dives with a Dive Leader or higher grade, to expand experience beyondthe conditions encountered during training, under the supervision ofa Dive Manager.
• usebreathing gas mixes up to Nitrox 36
• plan and conduct dives requiring mandatory decompression stops
• rescue a casualty and provide basic life support
• support the role of Dive Manager by acting as a competent deputy

 

[DevonDiver]

Decompression is covered in sports diver. It is basic, but it's covered

I didn't say "covered", I said "trained". (I bothered to underline that, do please check)

\Whilst not wishing to get caught up in semantics, I would point out that lots of things are 'covered' in lots of courses, but they are not necessarily 'trained'.

Sports divers are also able to conduct dives requiring deco. The open water bit of training even includes a simulated deco dive.

Let's be clear. You're quoting a website blurb, I qualified to teach Sports Divers.

Is doing a single 'simulated' deco dive experience the same as 'being able to conduct' deco. Hmmmm... As a GUE Fundies qualified diver, who's had exposure to a high standard of training, please tell me how you feel about that.

Did you ever look into what that 'simulated' deco dive was? Here...

I'd draw attention to the parameters highlighted...

What people do, or don't do, is quite irrelevant.

 

[rhwestfall]

but I have a drivers license, how come I can drive on the F-1 Circuit???????